Announcement

Collapse

Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Atheism And Moral Progress

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    That is the point Star, what if other atheists, let's say Communists, disagree with you on what constitutes moral progress? There isn't any right answer, nor can there be, even in principle.
    Your words here are pretty meaningless because the phrase "moral progress" is overloaded. It has too many different possible meanings. If you isolated out any one meaning, we could have a discussion about whether there was a "right answer" or not.

    It's like saying I might disagree with communists over what a "suit" is because I think it's a lawsuit and they think it's something you wear. Same word, different meanings. Until we have identified what kind of "moral progress" we are thinking of, we'd just be talking past one another.

    And even once you've established what you mean by the phrase, there are so many different possible ways to make progress even if you agree on the goal. e.g. say you're all totally agreed the objective goal is to get from NY to Houston. One way to make progress is to start walking. Another person makes progress by calling a taxi. Another person makes progress by going to work to earn the money they'd need for a plane flight. Even with complete agreement on the goal, there are still lots of types of ways that progress can be made toward it. Another person makes progress by going down to the dock to board a cruise ship. Which of those is the "objectively right" way of making progress? All of them, none of them, that's a meaningless question, and for those reasons I think your entire line of argument in this thread is meaningless nonsense.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Your words here are pretty meaningless because the phrase "moral progress" is overloaded. It has too many different possible meanings. If you isolated out any one meaning, we could have a discussion about whether there was a "right answer" or not.

      It's like saying I might disagree with communists over what a "suit" is because I think it's a lawsuit and they think it's something you wear. Same word, different meanings. Until we have identified what kind of "moral progress" we are thinking of, we'd just be talking past one another.

      And even once you've established what you mean by the phrase, there are so many different possible ways to make progress even if you agree on the goal. e.g. say you're all totally agreed the objective goal is to get from NY to Houston. One way to make progress is to start walking. Another person makes progress by calling a taxi. Another person makes progress by going to work to earn the money they'd need for a plane flight. Even with complete agreement on the goal, there are still lots of types of ways that progress can be made toward it. Another person makes progress by going down to the dock to board a cruise ship. Which of those is the "objectively right" way of making progress? All of them, none of them, that's a meaningless question, and for those reasons I think your entire line of argument in this thread is meaningless nonsense.
      Of course you do, but in the big picture there are no right answers. How can there be? There are no objective moral goals.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Of course you do, but in the big picture there are no right answers. How can there be? There are no objective moral goals.
        You're so dumb it's painful. Your false statements don't become true just because you repeat them 1000 times. Unless you actually have anything new or meaningful to say, this conversation is done.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I don't know who they are. I was asking you and the other atheists. Do you think we have made moral progress since the Roman era? Are morals better today? Or just different?
          Unless you believe that morals were “revealed" so as to keep a deity happy via their compliance, which I don’t, the purpose of a moral code is to develop and maintain a harmonious society and ultimately a peaceful, harmonious world.

          According to the likes of Professor Steven Pinker and Dr. Michael Shermer we are living in the most peaceful moment in our species’ existence...hence the most moral.
          I agree with their conclusions and suggest you read their books, which are available here.

          https://michaelshermer.com/the-moral-arc/

          https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/b...9780143122012/
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            You missed his whole point, Lewis is not saying that they exist or don't exist. That was not what he was getting at!!!!!!
            Oh really! I thought it was. I thought that CS Lewis was rationalising why we had to kill witches even though they may not even exist...difficult to do, I would've thought. So, perhaps you'd better explain to me just what he was "getting at".
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Of course you do, but in the big picture there are no right answers. How can there be? There are no objective moral goals.
              ...you mean objective moral goals like killing sodomites and adulterers, banning mixed marriages and treating well the slaves you own? Gotcha!
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                You're so dumb it's painful. Your false statements don't become true just because you repeat them 1000 times. Unless you actually have anything new or meaningful to say, this conversation is done.
                Really, so what are these objective moral goals, who decides? And that is the point, there is no agreement on the goal. And I'm not saying there may not be objectively better ways to reach a certain moral goal. New York is an objective goal, and there may be objectively better ways to reach that goal. This is not the case with ethics, the goal for the Communist Chinese or Muslims may be quite different than the goal for secular western countries. And there, there is no right answer - our goal is no more right or valid than theirs, nor can it be. It is the goal that is in question here, not the best way to reach the goal.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  ...you mean objective moral goals like killing sodomites and adulterers, banning mixed marriages and treating well the slaves you own? Gotcha!
                  Why do you keep fudging the truth Tass? Where does the Bible condemn mix marriages based on race? It doesn't. And yes, in the Nation of Israel, a theocracy, sodomites and adulterers were executed. So? BTW-no one was forced to stay in Israel, if you didn't like the laws you were free to leave. Just as if one doesn't like the laws in the US he is free to leave (or in a Republic like ours you can try and change them).
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    Oh really! I thought it was. I thought that CS Lewis was rationalising why we had to kill witches even though they may not even exist...difficult to do, I would've thought. So, perhaps you'd better explain to me just what he was "getting at".
                    He is saying that it is not a moral good not killing witches if you don't believe that witches exist. And that if they really did exist we should kill them. He is not commenting on whether they exist or not, only that modern cultures don't believe that they do.

                    It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches: there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house.”
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      This thread is a perpetual motion seer's version of 'Groundhog Day.'
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Unless you believe that morals were “revealed" so as to keep a deity happy via their compliance, which I don’t, the purpose of a moral code is to develop and maintain a harmonious society and ultimately a peaceful, harmonious world.
                        says who?

                        And basically if Hitler had his way, the world would be a peaceful, harmonious world, of all white Aryans with blue eyes, peacefully existing in loving harmony. So his morals were good, right? As would be any genocidal morality. If everyone was the same and you eliminated everyone different, their would be less strife and conflict.


                        According to the likes of Professor Steven Pinker and Dr. Michael Shermer we are living in the most peaceful moment in our species’ existence...hence the most moral.
                        It would be even more peaceful if the Nazi's had conquered the world.

                        And it was really peaceful during the Roman Empire too.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          OK. But your personal view doesn't actually equate to "better" or moral progress if someone else's view says otherwise. It is just comparing preferences.
                          No, "better is better" regardless of whether or not someone is of an opinion to the contrary. Morality is about human relationships, in other words it's about the good of human society, not one mans opinion.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Why do you keep fudging the truth Tass? Where does the Bible condemn mix marriages based on race? It doesn't.
                            South Africa's "Immorality Act" prohibited sexual intercourse and marriage between whites and blacks on biblical grounds as argued by the Dutch Reform Church. The bible has a history of saying whatever people want it to say in support of personal prejudices.

                            And yes, in the Nation of Israel, a theocracy, sodomites and adulterers were executed. So?
                            ...just as God commands. So why aren't you lobbying for such laws in the USA. You lobby hard enough against abortion and gay marriage. Why the inconsistency?
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              He is saying that it is not a moral good not killing witches if you don't believe that witches exist. And that if they really did exist we should kill them. He is not commenting on whether they exist or not, only that modern cultures don't believe that they do.
                              But God believed that witches existed, that why he commanded that they be killed. Got it wrong did he?

                              It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches: there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house.”
                              Gobbledegook!
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                South Africa's "Immorality Act" prohibited sexual intercourse and marriage between whites and blacks on biblical grounds as argued by the Dutch Reform Church. The bible has a history of saying whatever people want it to say in support of personal prejudices.
                                What does that have to do with anything? Show me from Scripture or shut up, really...

                                ...just as God commands. So why aren't you lobbying for such laws in the USA. You lobby hard enough against abortion and gay marriage. Why the inconsistency?
                                We don't live in a God ordained theocracy, and just because we don't want to execute gays does not mean that we have to embrace or support every immoral behavior, personally or in law.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
                                160 responses
                                508 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Started by seer, 02-15-2024, 11:24 AM
                                88 responses
                                354 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Diogenes, 01-22-2024, 07:37 PM
                                21 responses
                                133 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X