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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Most, or all?

    And if the punishment is immoral now, then it must have been immoral then as well, no? Like "the punishment" of stoning gay people to death, I think we can agree, even as a punishment, would be immoral behavior in itself today, so it must have been immoral then as well, no?
    I did not say the punishments are immoral now. Just that they are not necessary because we are not under a theocracy.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      No you have not. The best you have provided are vague references to the Golden Rule and the morality contained in the New Testament...whatever that means. Re the latter the huge number of Christian sects, all based upon differing scriptural interpretations, is indicative of the lack of clarity re the morality contained in the New Testament.
      That is a lie Tass - I have listed New Testament sins more that once, and your "interpretation" nonsense does not fly if one take the various text in context.

      New Testament moral wrongs:

      Adultery, fornication, homosexuality, witchcraft, lust, drunkenness, unjustified taking of human life, stealing, lying, unbelief, rage, covetousness, greed, idolatry, unbelief, pride, kidnapping, prostitution, bearing false witness, unforgiveness, blasphemy, deceit, fraud, envy, sorcery, hypocrisy, etc...

      New Testament moral goods:

      Loving God, loving our fellow man, being kind, following the golden rule, forgiving, being generous, helping the poor, being self-controlled, gracious, being honest, or refraining from all of the moral wrongs above...
      Last edited by seer; 07-30-2018, 08:24 AM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        I did not say the punishments are immoral now. Just that they are not necessary because we are not under a theocracy.
        So, in your view, stoning gay people to death for their sexual behavior is both moral and necessary under a theocracy, but under secular government it would still be moral, but not necessary? So, I guess then, that according to your view, it is we, as a secular government, that are the immoral ones for not continuing the practice of stoning gay people to death?

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        • #34
          Morality is a human invention. As such it can be altered over time to suit our state of knowledge. That change is observable.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

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          • #35
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            So, in your view, stoning gay people to death for their sexual behavior is both moral and necessary under a theocracy, but under secular government it would still be moral, but not necessary? So, I guess then, that according to your view, it is we, as a secular government, that are the immoral ones for not continuing the practice of stoning gay people to death?
            Look at it this way, God will eventually apply the death penalty to all unrepentant sinners. I will leave it in His hands. But if a culture decided to apply the death penalty for homosexual behavior I would not see that as immoral. To harsh and unforgiving perhaps, but not immoral.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Look at it this way, God will eventually apply the death penalty to all unrepentant sinners. I will leave it in His hands. But if a culture decided to apply the death penalty for homosexual behavior I would not see that as immoral. To harsh and unforgiving perhaps, but not immoral.
              And so you would agree as well that putting witches to death wouldn't be immoral either, correct?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                And so you would agree as well that putting witches to death wouldn't be immoral either, correct?
                Correct, but I don't think we are speaking witches in the sense we mean today (kind of like nature lovers) but those who made their bed with the devil. Let me quote CS Lewis...

                “Three hundred years ago people in England were putting witches to death.But surely the reason we do not execute witches is that we do not believe there are such things. If we did—if we really thought that there were people going about who had sold themselves to the devil and received supernatural powers from him in return and were using these powers to kill their neighbours or drive them mad or bring bad weather—surely we would all agree that if anyone deserved the death penalty, then these filthy quislings did? It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches: there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house.”
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Look at it this way, God will eventually apply the death penalty to all unrepentant sinners. I will leave it in His hands. But if a culture decided to apply the death penalty for homosexual behavior I would not see that as immoral. To harsh and unforgiving perhaps, but not immoral.
                  This reveals in spades the very anecdotal subjective nature for you argument concerning nature of morality
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Are our morals better today than say 2000 years ago? Are the morals of the modern western society better than those of the Roman Empire?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Correct, but I don't think we are speaking witches in the sense we mean today (kind of like nature lovers) but those who made their bed with the devil. Let me quote CS Lewis...

                      “Three hundred years ago people in England were putting witches to death.But surely the reason we do not execute witches is that we do not believe there are such things. If we did—if we really thought that there were people going about who had sold themselves to the devil and received supernatural powers from him in return and were using these powers to kill their neighbours or drive them mad or bring bad weather—surely we would all agree that if anyone deserved the death penalty, then these filthy quislings did? It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches: there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house.”
                      So, as long as you are ignorant in your beliefs, what you do in that regard, such as murdering people, isn't immoral? And here I thought that you believed in an objective standard, independent of human beliefs.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Are our morals better today than say 2000 years ago? Are the morals of the modern western society better than those of the Roman Empire?
                        Depends on who you ask...
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          So, as long as you are ignorant in your beliefs, what you do in that regard, such as murdering people, isn't immoral? And here I thought that you believed in an objective standard, independent of human beliefs.
                          Jim, I'm not sure how a culture applying the death penalty for specific wrongs is murder. And don't think you understand CS Lewis' point.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Depends on who you ask...
                            I am asking the atheists.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Are our morals better today than say 2000 years ago? Are the morals of the modern western society better than those of the Roman Empire?
                              Well yes, according to the likes of Steven Pinker in ‘The Better Angels of Our Nature’ and Michael Shermer in ‘The Moral Arc ‘. Both make well-researched claims that we are living in the most moral period of our species’ history.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Correct, but I don't think we are speaking witches in the sense we mean today (kind of like nature lovers) but those who made their bed with the devil. Let me quote CS Lewis...

                                “Three hundred years ago people in England were putting witches to death.But surely the reason we do not execute witches is that we do not believe there are such things. If we did—if we really thought that there were people going about who had sold themselves to the devil and received supernatural powers from him in return and were using these powers to kill their neighbours or drive them mad or bring bad weather—surely we would all agree that if anyone deserved the death penalty, then these filthy quislings did? It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches: there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house.”
                                So God got it wrong when he said in Exodus 22:18 "You must not allow a sorceress to live". Because he certainly seemed to think that witches existed. Interesting that CS Lewis (and seer) knows better than God. Perhaps God has also got it wrong about homosexuals too. Maybe God is ignorant enough to think that Homosexuality is a choice that warrants death, rather than, as we know today, the natural sexual orientation for some people.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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