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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    We can't earn our way into heaven by being moral or good.
    That is one view. If you read my post, I listed several different views. There are certainly those who believe as you do. There are also those who believe they can earn heaven or hell. I was reflecting the wide away of views on why people act morally. I am not selecting one over the other because I believe all of them to be incorrect; after all, I believe we are mortal and death ends our existence.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Think of a man who adopts a young boy. He makes the boy a part of his family. Now the father asks the son to do some chores and behave like a gentleman. If the son disobeys, he is not cast out of the family. The chores don't earn his position in the family, that is secure. He does what his father asks because he loves his father and wants to do the right thing, to contribute to the family. Not out of obligation or fear.
    In my experience, most children work their way to "doing right because it's right." They usually start out with obligation and fear. As with most things, there is a progression to moral maturity.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    and the purpose of morals is basically to get along with other people, to share, to help. How we ought to act. JimL is right that morals are about the good of society. He is just wrong about knowing what is good for society since under his theory morals are just some magical standard that everyone should follow but have no source or way to judge what "good" even means.
    Of course morality is about how we "ought to act." I don't think I've ever said otherwise. For every possible action, there is usually an assessment: should I or shouldn't I? For actions that impact what we most value, we call that "moralizing." Within a society, the social contract extends that to others. Most moralizing involves how we act towards other people, because many (most?) actions impact other people in some way. But not all actions involve other people - some are solely about the self.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Like a despot protecting what he vales, power and control....
      Actually - I answered this too quickly. It is entirely possible that someone will deeply value power and control and see actions that protect those things as moral. It even happens now and again that such a person rises to a position of power, and may even get a segment of the population to adopt his/her point of view. Such a position is unsustainable - because if everyone adopted that point of view, society itself would collapse. The situation is self-correcting.

      However, there are some views that were long held to be moral that only changed after a long period of time, and some are only now changing. Attitudes towards the LGBTQ community are the best example of the most recent. Attitudes about slavery and attitudes about women are two others.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        The Genesis Creation Narratives and the Fall of Man are “clear and unambiguous” too. No educated person accepts them as literally true nowadays.



        I'm sure you can make scripture say whatever you want it to say to support your personal prejudices. Christians have been doing it for centuries. The SBC used it to justify slavery and the Jim Crow laws.
        Again Tass, that is a lie. Yes somethings in Scripture are ambiguous, but most are clear and straight forward.



        The majority of Christians disagree with your interpretation of the texts re homosexuality. They take a more nuanced, less literal approach...just as they do about Genesis and much else in scripture. As I say, there can be no way to resolve conflicts about moral issues when the differing understandings of what scripture means are mutually exclusive. You're basically left with an: "I'm right and you're wrong" argument...as you’re demonstrating all too clearly.
        Another lie, the text is perfectly clear concerning many moral issues including homosexuality, and you know that. And I have no idea what you mean by a less literal approach. Homosexuality is defined as sin how do you make that less literal? And as my past link showed, the majority of those who study scripture more see homosexuality as immoral. And you have no idea what the majority of Christian believe - the majority of Christians in the world do not live in the US. Show me a worldwide poll.


        "They just don't like it" because it flies in the face of what we now know about human sexuality.
        That again is stupid. It tells us nothing about whether this behavior is moral or not.

        Those activities are deviant variations of human sexuality and harmful to the social order. Homosexuality is not...apart from socially disruptive bigots who persecute homosexuals.
        Again stupid, rape does not have to undermine social order as we have seen, neither does pedophilia. Which the Greek culture practiced for centuries. You are just making stuff up now.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Actually - I answered this too quickly. It is entirely possible that someone will deeply value power and control and see actions that protect those things as moral. It even happens now and again that such a person rises to a position of power, and may even get a segment of the population to adopt his/her point of view. Such a position is unsustainable - because if everyone adopted that point of view, society itself would collapse. The situation is self-correcting.
          Any system could eventually collapse, even democracies, and remember the Roman empire lasted for centuries. And it doesn't matter who adopts said position it only matters who has the power to impose his will.

          However, there are some views that were long held to be moral that only changed after a long period of time, and some are only now changing. Attitudes towards the LGBTQ community are the best example of the most recent. Attitudes about slavery and attitudes about women are two others.
          Yes moral change happens, but there is no objectively measurable moral progress.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            That is one view. If you read my post, I listed several different views. There are certainly those who believe as you do. There are also those who believe they can earn heaven or hell. I was reflecting the wide away of views on why people act morally. I am not selecting one over the other because I believe all of them to be incorrect; after all, I believe we are mortal and death ends our existence.
            You said "Christians...." and pretty much lumped everyone together. There are a lot of cults out there that are not actually Christian, and one of the hallmarks of a cult is works based salvation.



            In my experience, most children work their way to "doing right because it's right." They usually start out with obligation and fear. As with most things, there is a progression to moral maturity.
            Sigh. You can't seem to just accept an analogy for what it was intended to do. I was not trying to explain how families work, but why we do good because we are saved, not in order to be saved.


            Of course morality is about how we "ought to act." I don't think I've ever said otherwise. For every possible action, there is usually an assessment: should I or shouldn't I? For actions that impact what we most value, we call that "moralizing." Within a society, the social contract extends that to others. Most moralizing involves how we act towards other people, because many (most?) actions impact other people in some way. But not all actions involve other people - some are solely about the self.
            I never said otherwise. But morals are not mostly about ourselves, but about how we get along with others.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Any system could eventually collapse, even democracies, and remember the Roman empire lasted for centuries. And it doesn't matter who adopts said position it only matters who has the power to impose his will.
              But a system that contains a functional self contradiction is self-destructive. A house divided and all that....

              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Yes moral change happens, but there is no objectively measurable moral progress.
              Of course not. Morality is like evolution. The sense of "progress" is something we experience looking back on what has occurred and measured against what is. The more a moral position looks like my own, the more I will experience it as "progressing." The more it does not, the more I will experience it as regressing. But there is not "objective standard" against which to measure that progress.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                You said "Christians...." and pretty much lumped everyone together. There are a lot of cults out there that are not actually Christian, and one of the hallmarks of a cult is works based salvation.
                Sparko - I do not tell groups that call themselves Christian whether or not they are Christian. I leave that for you folks to fight about. I recognize many Christian groups deny that other groups that claim Christianity are actually Christian. There are currently over 2500 Christian sects. I'm not going to get into the middle of an inter-faith (or inter-sect) dispute. I merely noted the existence of many points of view. I did not argue their relative merits. Frankly, I think they are ALL wrong, so it would be silly of me to do so.

                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Sigh. You can't seem to just accept an analogy for what it was intended to do. I was not trying to explain how families work, but why we do good because we are saved, not in order to be saved.
                Your point was not particularly clear, IMO. But this seems to relate to my response just above, so I'll let that stand.

                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I never said otherwise. But morals are not mostly about ourselves, but about how we get along with others.
                That depends entirely on the moralizer, and their circumstances. Within a society, yes. A hermit would be at the other extreme. As with pretty much everything, there is a lot of variation.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Again Tass, that is a lie. Yes somethings in Scripture are ambiguous, but most are clear and straight forward.
                  Nonsense! The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the US, was founded so as to maintain slavery. Surely you are not suggesting that the SBC was consciously and wilfully acting contrary to scripture? This is but one example of many, where scriptures can be made to conform to personal prejudices.

                  Another lie, the text is perfectly clear concerning many moral issues including homosexuality, and you know that. And I have no idea what you mean by a less literal approach. Homosexuality is defined as sin how do you make that less literal?
                  Then ask your fellow Christians why the majority of them in the West now accept homosexuality. It’s not up to an atheist like me to say, to me it's just common sense. It's the cultural context that makes the difference as I understand it. "When it comes to homosexuality there are, at most, six passages of the Bible that are relevant":

                  https://theconversation.com/to-chris...decisive-82498

                  And as my past link showed, the majority of those who study scripture more see homosexuality as immoral.
                  Of course they do, they agree with you.

                  And you have no idea what the majority of Christian believe - the majority of Christians in the world do not live in the US. Show me a worldwide poll.
                  We know that the majority of Christians in the US now accept homosexuality.

                  That again is stupid. It tells us nothing about whether this behavior is moral or not.
                  “Moral”, according to whom, God?

                  Again stupid, rape does not have to undermine social order as we have seen, neither does pedophilia. Which the Greek culture practiced for centuries. You are just making stuff up now.
                  Rape has never been acceptable outside of primitive tribal communities.

                  If by paedophilia you mean the modern psychiatric definition of sex with pre-pubescent children that was never accepted in ancient Greece and Rome. What was acceptable and commonplace, were homosexual relationships with pubescent youths up to 16 or 18 years old, with the older partner being married to a woman and acting as mentor to the youth.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    But a system that contains a functional self contradiction is self-destructive. A house divided and all that....
                    Carp, in democracies we can have a divided house, have you looked around lately? And there is no inherent contradiction in totalitarianism, the most powerful rise and control.

                    Of course not. Morality is like evolution. The sense of "progress" is something we experience looking back on what has occurred and measured against what is. The more a moral position looks like my own, the more I will experience it as "progressing." The more it does not, the more I will experience it as regressing. But there is not "objective standard" against which to measure that progress.
                    Right, so like my OP stated there is no moral progress, just moral change.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Then ask your fellow Christians why the majority of them in the West now accept homosexuality. It’s not up to an atheist like me to say, to me it's just common sense. It's the cultural context that makes the difference as I understand it. "When it comes to homosexuality there are, at most, six passages of the Bible that are relevant":
                      Right and those texts condemn homosexual behavior. There are less texts concerning rape, so are we to conclude that prohibitions against rape are merely cultural considerations? There is no Biblical justification to limit prohibitions on homosexual behavior based on culture.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        So your answer is to just call everyone who disagrees with what YOU believe is moral or immoral "morons"
                        Only if it is proven by the illogic of their thought, such as thinking that killing, raping and pillaging is good for the community in which they live.
                        How do you know that YOU are not the one who is wrong when you claim that stealing and killing is immoral if everyone else believed them to be moral and good for society? When they call you a moron, what are you going to appeal to to convince them that stealing and killing is immoral even though everyone else in the world says it is moral and they even have studies to prove it?
                        The same thing we appeal to now, logic and sound reason.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Carp, in democracies we can have a divided house, have you looked around lately? And there is no inherent contradiction in totalitarianism, the most powerful rise and control.
                          You are missing the point, Seer. "the most powerful rise" means a select few. Totalitarianism cannot generalize because if all people take on the "squash everyone else" mentality, then everyone is squashing everyone and the safety of "valued things" is directly proportionate to your position in the power hierarchy. If the philosophy of the society is "I can kill anyone I want to," then no one is safe and life is always at risk. Hence the social contract.

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Right, so like my OP stated there is no moral progress, just moral change.
                          The is moral progress from the perspective of where we are now. From some non-existent objective perspective, there is only change. Like evolution...
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            You are missing the point, Seer. "the most powerful rise" means a select few. Totalitarianism cannot generalize because if all people take on the "squash everyone else" mentality, then everyone is squashing everyone and the safety of "valued things" is directly proportionate to your position in the power hierarchy. If the philosophy of the society is "I can kill anyone I want to," then no one is safe and life is always at risk. Hence the social contract.
                            Carp, it doesn't matter if it is generalized, it only matters if those with the power and ability take control. Some men are wolves others sheep, so it would not be generalized in the first place. As much of history has shown us.

                            The is moral progress from the perspective of where we are now.
                            I have no idea what that means, who says where we are now is progress?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Carp, it doesn't matter if it is generalized, it only matters if those with the power and ability take control. Some men are wolves others sheep, so it would not be generalized in the first place. As much of history has shown us.

                              I have no idea what that means, who says where we are now is progress?
                              It doesn't matter, Seer. I've just realized that you really have little/no intention of engaging in an actual discussion. You're just trolling.

                              I have better things to do with my time. I'll leave the last word to you.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                It doesn't matter, Seer. I've just realized that you really have little/no intention of engaging in an actual discussion. You're just trolling.

                                I have better things to do with my time. I'll leave the last word to you.
                                Carp, I gave you a direct rebuttable. Whether you can generalize a behavior or not has no bearing on what men actually do or not. The despot is not worried that others will try and mimic his behavior as much as he is concerned about keeping them in check. And if he has enough power and control he will. What you are saying in essence that if particular values (in this case power and control) can not be generalized then some how they are not legitimate. In other words why is the ability to generalize the benchmark for whether certain values are considered legitimate or not?
                                Last edited by seer; 09-08-2018, 08:06 PM.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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