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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Now you are flipping back to morals are a group decision? You can't keep your story straight from one post to another.

    Previously you said:




    Either you are trolling or you are about the stupidest idiot ever to post on theologyweb.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]30113[/ATTACH]
    The point, idiot, is that it is not about belief, whether of yours or anyone elses. If we all believe that murder, rape, and theft were good for society and good for the members of the community thereof, we would all be wrong. Of course we, being rational beings, would not come to those conclusions, but whether we did or not is irrelevant.

    Now when will you explain your side of the issue. Personally I don't think you can give a coherent explanation of morality.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      The point, idiot, is that it is not about belief, whether of yours or anyone elses. If we all believe that murder, rape, and theft were good for society and good for the members of the community thereof, we would all be wrong. Of course we, being rational beings, would not come to those conclusions, but whether we did or not is irrelevant.

      Now when will you explain your side of the issue. Personally I don't think you can give a coherent explanation of morality.
      Now you flip back to the other side? You just got finished saying "Nope, you're still not getting it. Morals, what we decide is right and wrong, what we agree to as a society, are those behaviors which we as a collective agree to as being either good or bad."

      So do we as a group decide what is good? or not? It is you who cannot give a coherent explanation of morality. You keep switching back and forth.

      You really ARE an idiot sandwich.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Now you flip back to the other side? You just got finished saying "Nope, you're still not getting it. Morals, what we decide is right and wrong, what we agree to as a society, are those behaviors which we as a collective agree to as being either good or bad."

        So do we as a group decide what is good? or not? It is you who cannot give a coherent explanation of morality. You keep switching back and forth.

        You really ARE an idiot sandwich.
        We don't decide what is good in and of itself, you idiot, we figure out what is in our best interests as a community. I'll have to assume that you are either just to dense to comprehend, or your subjective agenda is a block to your thinking ability.
        So, why don't you just tell us your rational moral theory now? Can't do it can you?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          We don't decide what is good in and of itself, you idiot, we figure out what is in our best interests as a community. I'll have to assume that you are either just to dense to comprehend, or your subjective agenda is a block to your thinking ability.
          So, why don't you just tell us your rational moral theory now? Can't do it can you?
          Jim...
          1. The whole world could believe that theft, murder, rape, whatever is in the best interests of the community of man and yet that belief still be wrong.
          2. Morals, what we decide is right and wrong, what we agree to as a society, are those behaviors which we as a collective agree to as being either good or bad.

          Pick one.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Jim...
            1. The whole world could believe that theft, murder, rape, whatever is in the best interests of the community of man and yet that belief still be wrong.
            Is that a true statement, or not? It is of course ridiculous in that such conclusions would be inconsistant with human reason, but as a hypothetical it makes my point.

            2. Morals, what we decide is right and wrong, what we agree to as a society, are those behaviors which we as a collective agree to as being either good or bad.
            How does that contradict the former? We could, if we assumed that we are all irrational idiots, still be wrong in deciding which morals would be in our best interests, just like in the above statement, but we are not all irrational idiots, we are beings of reason.

            Still refusing to give us your own perspective concerning morals eh?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Is that a true statement, or not? It is of course ridiculous in that such conclusions would be inconsistant with human reason, but as a hypothetical it makes my point.


              How does that contradict the former? We could, if we assumed that we are all irrational idiots, still be wrong in deciding which morals would be in our best interests, just like in the above statement, but we are not all irrational idiots, we are beings of reason.

              Still refusing to give us your own perspective concerning morals eh?
              The two statements are in diametric opposition to each other JimL. If you can't see that then you have no business discussing morality (or anything.)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                The two statements are in diametric opposition to each other JimL. If you can't see that then you have no business discussing morality (or anything.)
                Okay, lets hear your theory Sparko. Bet you run away rather than try to give a cogent explanation for morality. If you can't do that, then you have no business discussing morality (or anything.)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Okay, lets hear your theory Sparko. Bet you run away rather than try to give a cogent explanation for morality. If you can't do that, then you have no business discussing morality (or anything.)
                  Really? You don't know my position on morality? As a Christian?

                  I believe that the objective standard that morality sits upon is God and his nature. That is the standard of "good" which he has revealed to us. That is the standard you will be judged upon when you stand before him. So no matter if you or a group of people believe something is immoral that doesn't make it immoral - or vice versa. Morals are objective and the objective standard is God.

                  You on the other hand believe in objective morality (your "doesn't matter if anyone in the world agrees if stealing is immoral, it still is") except when asked what standard you use to determine "good" you falter and cannot give a coherent answer. Thus your constant "flip-flopping" above between trying to claim that what people believe is good doesn't matter and what people believe is good determines what is good.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Really? You don't know my position on morality? As a Christian?

                    I believe that the objective standard that morality sits upon is God and his nature. That is the standard of "good" which he has revealed to us. That is the standard you will be judged upon when you stand before him. So no matter if you or a group of people believe something is immoral that doesn't make it immoral - or vice versa. Morals are objective and the objective standard is God.

                    You on the other hand believe in objective morality (your "doesn't matter if anyone in the world agrees if stealing is immoral, it still is") except when asked what standard you use to determine "good" you falter and cannot give a coherent answer. Thus your constant "flip-flopping" above between trying to claim that what people believe is good doesn't matter and what people believe is good determines what is good.
                    Well, you see, we have a different idea as to what the word immoral actual means. To me "what is good and what is evil" relates to man and his world, i.e. to human society. In other words what is "good" is that which is in the best interests of humanity, and that which is "evil" is that which is not in the best interests of humanity. But, to you, what is "good" and what is "evil" has nothing to do with the best interests of humanity, it has only to do with god. In other words, to you, that which is "good" is only good because god says so, i guess, and that which is "evil" is evil only because god says so. From that perspective niether the term "good" or "evil" has any real meaning. Is that what you believe, that the terms "good" and "evil" don't really mean anything in and of themselves, other than god says so?
                    Last edited by JimL; 08-20-2018, 01:10 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Well, you see, we have a different idea as to what the word immoral actual means. To me "what is good and what is evil" relates to man and his world, i.e. to human society. In other words what is "good" is that which is in the best interests of humanity, and that which is "evil" is that which is not in the best interests of humanity. But, to you, what is "good" and what is "evil" has nothing to do with the best interests of humanity, it has only to do with god. In other words, to you, that which is "good" is only good because god says so, i guess, and that which is "evil" is evil only because god says so. From that perspective niether the term "good" or "evil" has any real meaning. Is that what you believe, that the terms "good" and "evil" don't really mean anything in and of themselves, other than god says so?
                      You have already said that what people (that includes you) think of as "good" for society doesn't matter because they could all be wrong. So you have no basis for deciding what is "good" or "best" - the terms are meaningless under your theory. It is you who is saying that good and evil have no meaning because it doesn't matter what anyone believes or agrees on.

                      Comment


                      • PS did you know that the very word "Good" comes from "God?"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          You have already said that what people (that includes you) think of as "good" for society doesn't matter because they could all be wrong. So you have no basis for deciding what is "good" or "best" - the terms are meaningless under your theory. It is you who is saying that good and evil have no meaning because it doesn't matter what anyone believes or agrees on.
                          You don't understand what I'm saying so would you now answer to your own beliefs instead of telling me what I mean. So, do you believe that the terms "good and "evil" don't really mean anything in and of themselves, other than god says so?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            So, do you believe that the terms "good and "evil" don't really mean anything in and of themselves, other than god says so?
                            Of course, why would it be otherwise? As an atheist how would they have meaning apart from your say so?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              You don't understand what I'm saying
                              I understand perfectly what you are saying, I even quoted your exact words back to you to show your self-contradiction.

                              so would you now answer to your own beliefs instead of telling me what I mean. So, do you believe that the terms "good and "evil" don't really mean anything in and of themselves, other than god says so?
                              As far as the VALUE of what is good and what is evil, that is measured against the character and nature of God. Since he created the universe, so good corresponds with the way he created things to work and evil corresponds to things not working the way he wants (and is). God IS Good. So Good is all that is like God - as I stated above the word "good" comes from the word "god"!

                              Evil is that which goes against God and his purpose.

                              He gave us a conscience to help guide us and he revealed himself and his values to us directly in the bible. So there is no excuse.

                              Romans 2:
                              12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Of course, why would it be otherwise? As an atheist how would they have meaning apart from your say so?
                                According to JimL they don't even have a meaning from his say so, he already said that it doesn't matter what anyone believes is good or evil.

                                Comment

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