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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    No, as usual you just keep miscomprehending what I say. Morality is neither dependent upon what people believe, nor is it determined by what people rationally agree upon, particularly since both assertions amount to the same thing.



    No. Now try and see if you can grasp the point being made. We can talk about individual communities, or we can talk about the community of man in general. In either case, whatever is in the best interests of the latter, i.e. in the best interests of all human society, is also and ultimately in the best interests of the former. If your society of pirates are good with stealing from other societies, then those others would be just as good with stealing from pirates. Therefore theft being seen as a moral good would not be in the best interests of either society.
    If it doesn't depend on what people think is best for society, then how are you determining if something is best for society? There has to be some objective metric at work in your scenario, or you are just spouting nonsense. How can YOU, JimL claim that stealing is NOT best for society? What standard are you using?

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    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      If it doesn't depend on what people think is best for society, then how are you determining if something is best for society? There has to be some objective metric at work in your scenario, or you are just spouting nonsense. How can YOU, JimL claim that stealing is NOT best for society? What standard are you using?
      The objective metric would be the overall social results concerning the use of, and the adherence to, the morals in question. If society, because of the moral laws, is itself a place wherein its members are able to live together more peacfully and harmoniously than they could without such moral laws, then it doesn't matter if some ignorant numbskull thinks he disagrees simply because he's a contrarian.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        That is the point Tass, men are wicked. The Bible does not support racism - period, you know that since we have gone over it in the past, and just because some try and use Scripture to justify personal bias does not mean Scripture supports it.
        Many “men” for a very long time did just that. They didn’t believe they were “wicked”, they believed they were following scripture. Just as YOU believe you are following scripture by persecuting homosexuals

        I was speaking of the fact that you CAN NOT justify racism with Scripture.
        Many did, some still do.

        So if a community decide to jail homosexuals then that is moral. Got it...
        They did just that until relatively recently, based on scripture...we now know better.

        If homosexuality is a normal part of human sexuality then so is adultery, bestiality, prostitution, pedophilia, etc...
        All of these aberrations are equally practiced by heterosexuals, but we don’t persecute heterosexuals for it.

        As was pedophilia...
        Whats pedophilia got to do with anything? I was responding to your erroneous assertion that homosexuality was not commonplace in history. It was, from the very top down in the Classical world.

        So what? That is just another one of your shifting cultural norms.
        Like apartheid and witch-burning you mean?

        I don't need the Bible to know that killing our own offspring is immoral - do you?
        In terms of abortion, it has only been deemed “immoral” relatively recently...for political reasons as much as anything.

        Except we know that religious people are happier and more content.
        So you say. Deluded people often are.

        Except they would be even happier if they were religious.
        They are happier without god compared to the violent, inequitable religious USA

        Then give me an example, which one of my Christian beliefs is grounded in the social mores of today. Be specific please.
        You no longer regard slavery or witch-burning as scripturally based whereas Evangelicals like you once did.
        Last edited by Tassman; 08-17-2018, 11:04 PM.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Many “men” for a very long time did just that. They didn’t believe they were “wicked”, they believed they were following scripture. Just as YOU believe you are following scripture by persecuting homosexuals.
          This is getting tiring. There is no justification for racism in Scripture, where homosexuality is clearly defined as sin, a moral evil.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            The objective metric would be the overall social results concerning the use of, and the adherence to, the morals in question. If society, because of the moral laws, is itself a place wherein its members are able to live together more peacfully and harmoniously than they could without such moral laws, then it doesn't matter if some ignorant numbskull thinks he disagrees simply because he's a contrarian.
            again, how do you judge the "overall social results" if what a person or group believes is good doesn't matter? How do you know "living peacefully" is "good" since what you think or believe is good doesn't matter?

            This is where your idea falls apart.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              again, how do you judge the "overall social results" if what a person or group believes is good doesn't matter? How do you know "living peacefully" is "good" since what you think or believe is good doesn't matter?

              This is where your idea falls apart.
              No, what you don't seem to understand is that morality is about that which is in the best interests of the group, that the best interests of the individual is secondary to that. So, what a flawed individual might think is irrelevant to the good of society overall. For instance, you might ignorantly believe that murder, theft etc etc. are not in contradiction to the good of society as a whole but the empirical evidence proves that what you ignorantly believe to be true is actually false. i.e. that the community is better off without murder, theft etc etc.

              And btw, we know what is good, because what is good is that which is relative to our best interests, and that which is relative to our best interests relates to that which is in the best interests of all of society collectively. But, since you will continue to disagree, perhaps you'd be willing to explain to me your own perspective, i.e. "how do you know what is good or what is evil."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                No, what you don't seem to understand is that morality is about that which is in the best interests of the group, that the best interests of the individual is secondary to that. So, what a flawed individual might think is irrelevant to the good of society overall. For instance, you might ignorantly believe that murder, theft etc etc. are not in contradiction to the good of society as a whole but the empirical evidence proves that what you ignorantly believe to be true is actually false. i.e. that the community is better off without murder, theft etc etc.

                And btw, we know what is good, because what is good is that which is relative to our best interests, and that which is relative to our best interests relates to that which is in the best interests of all of society collectively. But, since you will continue to disagree, perhaps you'd be willing to explain to me your own perspective, i.e. "how do you know what is good or what is evil."
                again, you already said that what the group thinks is "best" is no more valid than what the individual thinks is "best" - that even if the whole world believed that something was "best" that doesn't make it "best"

                Yet you keep appealing to what is best for society. If nobody, including you or any group can determine what is "best" or "good" then how do you measure if a moral is making society better? You have destroyed your own metric and then appeal to it as an objective standard. Your view is completely nonsensical. You are like a blind guy claiming that red is a better color than blue for blind people but can't point to red because you are blind.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  again, you already said that what the group thinks is "best" is no more valid than what the individual thinks is "best" - that even if the whole world believed that something was "best" that doesn't make it "best"

                  Yet you keep appealing to what is best for society. If nobody, including you or any group can determine what is "best" or "good" then how do you measure if a moral is making society better? You have destroyed your own metric and then appeal to it as an objective standard. Your view is completely nonsensical. You are like a blind guy claiming that red is a better color than blue for blind people but can't point to red because you are blind.
                  Nope, you're still not getting it. Morals, what we decide is right and wrong, what we agree to as a society, are those behaviors which we as a collective agree to as being either good or bad. It's not about what one ignorant individual might think. The metric, like I said before, is the nature of the resulting community in which the moral laws are adhered to and or enforced.

                  Now, are you going to tell us, explain, from your perspective, what it is that you believe makes a thing, or behavior, either good or bad so that we can examine your reasoning, or are you just going to keep asserting that I'm wrong?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    This is getting tiring. There is no justification for racism in Scripture, where homosexuality is clearly defined as sin, a moral evil.
                    Christians have always used scripture to support their own personal prejudices and those of the community to which they belong. There are however many Christians who seem in good conscious to be able to accept homosexuality and view the biblical injunctions against it differently than you....so perhaps you should confer with them and learn how to love rather than hate.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      again, you already said that what the group thinks is "best" is no more valid than what the individual thinks is "best" - that even if the whole world believed that something was "best" that doesn't make it "best"

                      Yet you keep appealing to what is best for society. If nobody, including you or any group can determine what is "best" or "good" then how do you measure if a moral is making society better? You have destroyed your own metric and then appeal to it as an objective standard. Your view is completely nonsensical. You are like a blind guy claiming that red is a better color than blue for blind people but can't point to red because you are blind.
                      We are simply naturally evolved biological organisms existing in an amoral material environment; if there is any goodness or caring to be done we are the ones to do it. The question of right and wrong arises due to the fact that we are a social species and live in community among other human beings. If we are to do so successfully, there are certain basic principles that must apply, including respect for other individuals and mutual reciprocity.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Christians have always used scripture to support their own personal prejudices and those of the community to which they belong. There are however many Christians who seem in good conscious to be able to accept homosexuality and view the biblical injunctions against it differently than you....so perhaps you should confer with them and learn how to love rather than hate.
                        So if I think that adultery or prostitution or stealing or bestiality or promiscuity are morally wrong then I am hating? Really?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          So if I think that adultery or prostitution or stealing or bestiality or promiscuity are morally wrong then I am hating? Really?
                          Are you seriously equating homosexuality with prostitution or stealing or promiscuity. Really! And yet you voted for a heterosexual man who famously does all these things.

                          And while it's an issue of homosexuality today, not so long ago it was slavery, racial discrimination and mixed marriages or the denigration of women as second class citizens or witch-burning. Christians have always used scripture to support their own personal prejudices and the prejudices of the community to which they belong.
                          Last edited by Tassman; 08-19-2018, 08:37 PM.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            So if I think that adultery or prostitution or stealing or bestiality or promiscuity are morally wrong then I am hating? Really?
                            No, you can think whatever you want, but that you think a thing immoral isn't what makes it immoral. Even you agree to that, right? The difference is that you believe that there is some existing objective standard of morality out there that has nothing to do with human reason, even though you have no idea what morals are contained in that objective standard.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Are you seriously equating homosexuality with prostitution or stealing or promiscuity. Really! And yet you voted for a heterosexual man who famously does all these things.
                              Don't be an idiot Tass, you get my point. Just because one sees something as immoral does mean you hate the person practicing it.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Nope, you're still not getting it. Morals, what we decide is right and wrong, what we agree to as a society, are those behaviors which we as a collective agree to as being either good or bad. It's not about what one ignorant individual might think. The metric, like I said before, is the nature of the resulting community in which the moral laws are adhered to and or enforced.

                                Now, are you going to tell us, explain, from your perspective, what it is that you believe makes a thing, or behavior, either good or bad so that we can examine your reasoning, or are you just going to keep asserting that I'm wrong?
                                Now you are flipping back to morals are a group decision? You can't keep your story straight from one post to another.

                                Previously you said:
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                No, I'm saying that belief has nothing to do with it. The whole world could believe that theft, murder, rape, whatever is in the best interests of the community of man and yet that belief still be wrong.


                                Either you are trolling or you are about the stupidest idiot ever to post on theologyweb.

                                idiotsandwich.gif
                                Last edited by Sparko; 08-20-2018, 09:07 AM.

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