Atheism And Moral Progress

[Stoic]

But you are a materialist, what else is there besides instinct?

Well, outside of the Republican party, there is also education.

[seer]

Well, outside of the Republican party, there is also education.

Nice slam. But how is education not a part of our instinctual behavior? What is this other thing exactly?

[Stoic]

That is not really true is it. The leadership of China and North Korea seem to be motoring along OK. And may nations did quote well while enslaving a minority of their population.

So you are of the opinion that the citizens of China think causing others pain for your gain is a good thing?

Do you think that's true of people who immigrate into the US from there?

[seer]

Biology (i.e, natural selection) always aims for survival (as far as a natural process can be said to 'aim' at anything). Always. That's the entire point. That it sometimes fails doesn't mean that that's not what it 'aims' for.

Biology does not aim for anything, It doesn't care, does not intend. Do you mean that some species just happen to survive and others don't happen to survive?

[seer]

I don't know how many times you need this question answered - it's been done repeatedly.

I'm sorry you were not clear. So on what basis would call what the Europeans did to the native tribes of Australia, immoral? And if you did give a clear answer can you show me which post?

[seer]

So you are of the opinion that the citizens of China think causing others pain for your gain is a good thing?

No I think the Chinese government thinks it is a good thing to control the population by whatever means necessary - including using concentration camps.

Do you think that's true of people who immigrate into the US from there?

I think they prefer to come to a country largely formed on Christian principles.

[Stoic]

Nice slam. But how is education not a part of our instinctual behavior? What is this other thing exactly?

Whenever behavior is based on a consideration of the potential consequences of that behavior, it's not instinctive. Instinctive behavior is behavior that is programmed into you, because it worked for your ancestors before civilization got started.

Instinctive behavior is devouring all the sugary carbohydrates you can, whenever you get the chance, because calories used to be hard to come by. Moderating your intake in order to control your weight and prevent disease is learned behavior, not instinctive.

[thormas]

I agree that man's self-consciousness makes all the difference, but what does 'self-transcendent' mean?

The being who searches/longs for something 'beyond' himself for fulfillment/meaning.

[Stoic]

No I think the Chinese government thinks it is a good thing to control the population by whatever means necessary - including using concentration camps.

But we were talking about morality, not what the Chinese government thinks. Or do you think they are the same thing?

I think they prefer to come to a country largely formed on Christian principles.

And on what basis do you believe that?

[seer]

Whenever behavior is based on a consideration of the potential consequences of that behavior, it's not instinctive. Instinctive behavior is behavior that is programmed into you, because it worked for your ancestors before civilization got started.

If one is a determinist I don't think how all behavior isn't instinctual at bottom.

Instinctive behavior is devouring all the sugary carbohydrates you can, whenever you get the chance, because calories used to be hard to come by. Moderating your intake in order to control your weight and prevent disease is learned behavior, not instinctive.

So you won't moderate you intake based on your instinct to survive?

[seer]

But we were talking about morality, not what the Chinese government thinks. Or do you think they are the same thing?

So putting part of your population in concentration camps is not a moral question? Or not allowing human rights is not a moral question?

And on what basis do you believe that?

Because the majority of the Founders were Christian, the majority of the population through our history were Christian, and human rights are grounded in God.

[Stoic]

If one is a determinist I don't think how all behavior isn't instinctual at bottom.

Perhaps, if one uses a weird definition of "instinctual".

So you won't moderate you intake based on your instinct to survive?

If you have to think about it, it's not instinctive.

[Stoic]

So putting part of your population in concentration camps is not a moral question? Or not allowing human rights is not a moral question?

Of course they are moral questions.

Do you think the population considers those things moral?

Because the majority of the Founders were Christian, the majority of the population through our history were Christian, and human rights are grounded in God.

On what basis do you believe that that's the reason Chinese are immigrating to the US?

[seer]

Perhaps, if one uses a weird definition of "instinctual".

I would define it as what is biologically driven. Rather than what is driven by immaterial conceptual truths, thoughts or fact. Because I don't see how a materialist could hold to any position but epiphenomenalism.

[seer]

Of course they are moral questions.

Do you think the population considers those things moral?

Do you think the ruling élite think those things are immoral? And that is the point, some do think the pain of others is morally acceptable if it is in service of their power or gain. So who is right and why?

On what basis do you believe that that's the reason Chinese are immigrating to the US?

I think many crave the freedom and opportunity the Christian West has created.