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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    The point is, if there are not universal moral truths then what wars we call moral or not is immaterial, all moral considerations are no more than legal or moral fictions. Nice bed time stories we tell ourselves.
    Again, that is not true. They don't need to be universal to be influential and something to which we can all refer.
    America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      If morality is objective, it would not be surprising if comparisons of morals, by which you could judge moral principles, were objective, and recognizable. So "love fulfils the law", we can see how that would be true, and gives a framework for all morality.
      How could you compare morals? How would you demonstrate which were objective?

      America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post

        No I didn't.
        Yes, you did.
        America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          But you conceded my point about them being made up.
          Actually, it's my point that moral rules are made up by humans. You seem to think they come from somewhere else.

          Or you start out with the value that causing others pain for your gain is a good thing.
          You can try creating a set of moral rules starting with that value, and see if you can get enough members of your society to go along with it. Frankly, I don't think it would catch on. Or if it did, the society wouldn't last long.

          So I should have been an obedient Nazi in 1930s Germany?
          If you were a German in the 1930s, you would have to choose whether to go along with the Nazis, or face the consequences. This would be the case whether or not I am right about where moral rules come from.

          Comment


          • [QUOTE=Stoic;n1190671]
            Actually, it's my point that moral rules are made up by humans. You seem to think they come from somewhere else.


            I have not thought for a very long time that moral rules or, simply, the way to be, comes from 'somewhere else' - however I do think that morals or the way to be (and act) is discovered or, better, discerned and such actions enhance life. If life is not enhanced, they are false (i.e. Nazism), if life is enhanced there is truth - a truth discerned by and part of many religions.

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            • Originally posted by thormas View Post
              I have not thought for a very long time that moral rules or, simply, the way to be, comes from 'somewhere else' - however I do think that morals or the way to be (and act) is discovered or, better, discerned and such actions enhance life. If life is not enhanced, they are false (i.e. Nazism), if life is enhanced there is truth - a truth discerned by and part of many religions.
              I would agree, though the concept of "enhanced" is somewhat subjective.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                I would agree, though the concept of "enhanced" is somewhat subjective.
                Perhaps but this too I suspect can be discerned: we know when we are 'fully alive' if only for today and then we begin agains tomorrow.

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                • [QUOTE=seer;n1190476]

                  But you can't call these things immoral. When chimps do this to each other do you call that immoral?


                  The only difference is that humans have the intellectual capacity to categorize ‘acceptable’ and ‘unacceptable’ behavior as a moral code whereas with chimps such behaviors are purely instinctive.

                  Of course they are fictions, there is no morality in biology except what we make up.


                  Biology predisposes evolved creatures via Natural Selection to behave in certain ways as a survival mechanism. So yes, morality is grounded in biology. It is a product of evolution in that it enhances our survival as a social species.



                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                  • "The only difference is that humans have the intellectual capacity to categorize ‘acceptable’ and ‘unacceptable’ behavior as a moral code whereas with chimps such behaviors are purely instinctive. "



                    And that makes all the difference: man is the self-conscious and the self-transcendent being.


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      The only difference is that humans have the intellectual capacity to categorize ‘acceptable’ and ‘unacceptable’ behavior as a moral code whereas with chimps such behaviors are purely instinctive.
                      But you are a materialist, what else is there besides instinct?


                      Biology predisposes evolved creatures via Natural Selection to behave in certain ways as a survival mechanism. So yes, morality is grounded in biology. It is a product of evolution in that it enhances our survival as a social species.
                      Biology does not aim for our survival, any more than it did for the millions of extinct species. And a survival mechanism could just as well include our tribe slaughtering a neighboring tribe and taking all their stuff. And you labeling that as immoral is a fiction. In other words on what basis would you call a perfectly natural behavior immoral?

                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                        Actually, it's my point that moral rules are made up by humans. You seem to think they come from somewhere else.


                        You can try creating a set of moral rules starting with that value, and see if you can get enough members of your society to go along with it. Frankly, I don't think it would catch on. Or if it did, the society wouldn't last long.
                        That is not really true is it. The leadership of China and North Korea seem to be motoring along OK. And may nations did quote well while enslaving a minority of their population.


                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                          Again, that is not true. They don't need to be universal to be influential and something to which we can all refer.
                          On what basis would you call, let's say, what the Europeans did to the native tribes of Australia, immoral? Apart from your person preference?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by thormas View Post
                            "The only difference is that humans have the intellectual capacity to categorize ‘acceptable’ and ‘unacceptable’ behavior as a moral code whereas with chimps such behaviors are purely instinctive. "



                            And that makes all the difference: man is the self-conscious and the self-transcendent being.
                            I agree that man's self-consciousness makes all the difference, but what does 'self-transcendent' mean?
                            America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Biology does not aim for our survival
                              Biology (i.e, natural selection) always aims for survival (as far as a natural process can be said to 'aim' at anything). Always. That's the entire point. That it sometimes fails doesn't mean that that's not what it 'aims' for.
                              America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                On what basis would you call, let's say, what the Europeans did to the native tribes of Australia, immoral? Apart from your person preference?
                                I don't know how many times you need this question answered - it's been done repeatedly.
                                America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                                Comment

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