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Cogito ergo sum

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
    Give a definition of 'ad hominem', and show exactly where you think I did that.
    An ad hominem argument is an argument directed against a person, rather than the position he is maintaining.

    I argued that (a) Tassman's behaviour is inconsistent with his stated position on morality (ergo his position is false, since he himself doesn't or can't live it out);
    You claimed it, but you did not argue it, at least not very succinctly.

    You did say, "Why do you waste your, and more importantly our, time, spouting off about things that your own viewpoint insists are mere abstractions of passing taste and fashion?"

    But you didn't back up your claim that his viewpoint insists that morals "are mere abstractions of passing taste and fashion." I'd say this is a straw man.

    Morals don't change overnight; it takes generations.

    (b) gave an example of this pattern of self-contradiction in a related area of philosophy; (c) pointed out that someone who repeatedly contradicts themselves is likely not the most rational (hence their positions should be regarded with some skepticism)
    This is where you fell into an ad hominem argument. You are arguing against the person, rather than his position. Even if your argument was correct, that would not make his position wrong. That's why it is considered a fallacy.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
      Morals don't change overnight; it takes generations.
      That isn't exactly true is it.

      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        That isn't exactly true is it.
        The moral values of a society do not change overnight, and that is what the discussion was about.

        It's conceivable that an individual's morals could change overnight. He might have a brilliant flash of insight that completely changes how he looks at morality, or a traumatic experience might move him in the opposite direction. In either case, morality is not equivalent to "mere abstractions of passing taste and fashion."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

          The moral values of a society do not change overnight, and that is what the discussion was about.

          It's conceivable that an individual's morals could change overnight. He might have a brilliant flash of insight that completely changes how he looks at morality, or a traumatic experience might move him in the opposite direction. In either case, morality is not equivalent to "mere abstractions of passing taste and fashion."
          Look at gay rights and gay marriage - within 40 years...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post

            Look at gay rights and gay marriage - within 40 years...
            The law can change overnight. Attitudes don't.

            And 40 years is about 2 generations.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

              The law can change overnight. Attitudes don't.

              And 40 years is about 2 generations.
              That is not exactly true either - polling suggests that acceptance of gay marriage completely changed in about 15 years...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                That is not exactly true either - polling suggests that acceptance of gay marriage completely changed in about 15 years...
                The public was not entirely against it 24 years ago, and they aren't entirely in favor of it now. The change has been gradual.

                https://news.gallup.com/poll/311672/...cord-high.aspx

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                  The public was not entirely against it 24 years ago, and they aren't entirely in favor of it now. The change has been gradual.

                  https://news.gallup.com/poll/311672/...cord-high.aspx
                  The polls completely flipped in 24 years - that is not generations...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post

                    The polls completely flipped in 24 years - that is not generations...
                    Depends on your definition of "completely flipped". If you mean a going from a majority against to a majority in favor, it only took a couple of years.

                    With morality, I'd say that "completely flipped" means going from practically everyone against to practically everyone in favor, and that's going to be a lot longer than 24 years.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                      Depends on your definition of "completely flipped". If you mean a going from a majority against to a majority in favor, it only took a couple of years.

                      With morality, I'd say that "completely flipped" means going from practically everyone against to practically everyone in favor, and that's going to be a lot longer than 24 years.
                      A distinction without a difference in IMHO...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                        Give a definition of 'ad hominem', and show exactly where you think I did that.
                        No and no. Go learn.

                        Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                        I argued that (a) Tassman's behaviour is inconsistent with his stated position on morality (ergo his position is false, since he himself doesn't or can't live it out); (b) gave an example of this pattern of self-contradiction in a related area of philosophy; (c) pointed out that someone who repeatedly contradicts themselves is likely not the most rational (hence their positions should be regarded with some skepticism)

                        All of the above relates to the question at hand - the precise nature of morality and moral values, and whether Tassman's beliefs on the matter are plausible or true.

                        An ad hominem would be something like if I had said that Tassman was 'a typical Aussie criminal type' and therefore his argument was false.
                        You used ad hominem and it did not help your argument.
                        America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post


                          I actually I don't see what biology has to do with morality. Biology does not care about ethics. When one chimp kills another chimp do we call that a moral wrong? All other species seem to survive just fine without inventing the legal and moral fictions we do. And biology has no goal, not even our survival.
                          ALL living creatures evolved via biological processes and human morality is a result of the development of necessary social behavior to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals. This is something we share with other intelligent animals to a limited extent – including chimps.







                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                            ALL living creatures evolved via biological processes and human morality is a result of the development of necessary social behavior to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals. This is something we share with other intelligent animals to a limited extent – including chimps.
                            Except that survival, like with chimps, includes stronger tribes killing weaker tribes and taking their territories and stuff.

                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Except that survival, like with chimps, includes stronger tribes killing weaker tribes and taking their territories and stuff.
                              Biology doesn't provide all of morality; just the foundation for it. (Primarily empathy and a facility for cooperation.) Reason and enlightened self-interest have to be added in, and stirred for some number of millenia.

                              Given the way we often treat people who are not of our "group", and how often different "groups" go at it, we are obviously not finished yet.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                Biology doesn't provide all of morality; just the foundation for it. (Primarily empathy and a facility for cooperation.) Reason and enlightened self-interest have to be added in, and stirred for some number of millenia.

                                Given the way we often treat people who are not of our "group", and how often different "groups" go at it, we are obviously not finished yet.
                                Not finished yet? You speak like there is an objective moral goal to reach. Perhaps we will simply revert to greater and more violent tribalism - that kind is of what it feels like of late.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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