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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by mattbballman31 View Post
    That's all non-normative descriptions.You might be investing axiology into moral concepts metaethically. But it's just sociological axiology. It's a good sociological or psychological description of individual and collective preferences that murder is deemed 'bad'. But 'bad' here is a non-moral descriptor. It semantically means an act within that subset of actions that contingently align with said descriptive preferences. Even the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's entry on Moral Naturalism doesn't ultimately go down this route.
    Doesn't matter if my take on morality is the norm or not, what morals actually are is what's being discussed.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      What evidence? Moral beliefs come down to personal preference, nothing more. You already agreed with that.
      Moral beliefs “come down to” much more than this in that “personal preference” is shaped and modified by a large range of factors according to the society in which we live. As social animals we do not function in isolation (“no man is an island entire to himself – Donne). Hence morality, as practiced in actuality, “comes down” to socially acceptable behavior and this has evolved and varied from culture to culture over time.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Moral beliefs “come down to” much more than this in that “personal preference” is shaped and modified by a large range of factors according to the society in which we live. As social animals we do not function in isolation (“no man is an island entire to himself – Donne). Hence morality, as practiced in actuality, “comes down” to socially acceptable behavior and this has evolved and varied from culture to culture over time.
        Yes socially acceptable behavior like rounding up Jews...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Moral beliefs “come down to” much more than this in that “personal preference” is shaped and modified by a large range of factors according to the society in which we live. As social animals we do not function in isolation (“no man is an island entire to himself – Donne). Hence morality, as practiced in actuality, “comes down” to socially acceptable behavior and this has evolved and varied from culture to culture over time.
          I'd just like to add "in general" here. Obviously, some people do not view that "socially acceptable behaviour" as the definition of morality. I'm thinking of people who flout rules about theft, murder, rape, etc. Clearly, for example, Ted Bundy was completely uninterested in socially acceptable behaviour, particularly as a guide to his morality.
          America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Yes socially acceptable behavior like rounding up Jews...
            I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
            America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
              I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
              Probably the same point that you just made to Tass... Or that some cultures differ on that is socially acceptable behavior...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                Okay.

                I like to think that when I err, I admit it and apologise. Of course, everybody likes to think that of themselves :)

                Agreed again.

                I think that's likely, but I'm not confident enough to move to strong atheism on the strength of it.

                I am curious here. Why do you think that "something exists" is a better/more accurate conclusion than "I am"?
                The sense of "I" appears to be an unchallengeable reality, but is it? Is it not possible that my sense of individuated being is simply an illusion, and "I" am simply one of many personalities of a being, each unaware of the existence of the others? My experience seems to unequivocally indicate that something exists, but it is not clear to me that this "something" is necessarily the individuated "I" that I experience.

                Of course, that is for academic purposes. In reality, I accept what appears to me to be the most likely truth: that I exist as an individual, physical being with sentience. I just cannot definitively prove it.

                Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                My favourite (in my younger partying days, at least, is Bibo, ergo sum - I drink, therefore I am.


                Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                I've been on that merry-go-round once or twice..

                There is no higher cookie than the chocolate chip.
                You are a scoundrel and a knave, sir. Had I you before me, I would cast my gauntlet upon the ground!
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                  I cannot disagree - but I will say that I would be a lot less skeptical about "what god wants" if it didn't so often turn out to be the same thing wanted by the person telling you what god wants.
                  Something I have also noted multiple times.

                  Quote of the day: you know you have created god in your own image and likeness when god wants/likes/approves everything you want/like/approve.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Carp says so...
                    How do you know Carp is correct?
                    Carp says so...
                    (repeat, ad infinitum)
                    Another pointless discussion with you about the circularity of your argument, Seer, or your inability to grasp it's errors, is not going to happen. As far as I can tell, you are chronically blind to it. I'll leave you to it.

                    For the casual reader, Carpe has never made a claim to being absolutely or objectively right in the moral sphere. Holding that position would be inconsistent.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                      A very poor response. Whether or not what Carp says is correct can be determined by the evidence supporting his claim. Sadly, the same is not true of the bible.
                      This is curious. If it is true of Carpe's claims, why is it not true of biblical claims? After all, the only difference between Carpe and the bible is that Carpe is still alive and is one person, whereas the bible authors were many over many centuries, and they are all (presumably) dead now. But can't the claims of any person be assessed by looking at the evidence, alive or dead?

                      BTW - the heart of Seer's problem is his inability to recognize subjective claims when they are made, and to continue to insist that they must be objective to be "real" or "true" or "valid." I hold to morality as a subjective, relative exercise. He, obviously, does not. Unfortunately, he has never been able to see that his moral claims collapse to the subjective pretty quickly.

                      How would you classify yourself, in terms of moral philosophy?
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Yes socially acceptable behavior like rounding up Jews...
                        ...or maintaining slavery or slaughtering the Native Americans.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          ...or maintaining slavery or slaughtering the Native Americans.
                          Ironic self-righteousness coming from someone from a land who's genocidal policies drove their indigenous population right to the brink of extinction (IIRC you could count the number of survivors on one hand) during their illustrious Black War

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            ...or maintaining slavery or slaughtering the Native Americans.
                            And that was immoral in your relative world why? Just animals doing what animals do...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Another pointless discussion with you about the circularity of your argument, Seer, or your inability to grasp it's errors, is not going to happen. As far as I can tell, you are chronically blind to it. I'll leave you to it.
                              What about the circularity of your moral arguments Carp? You are blind to your hypocrisy. And you will leave me to it? You come into my thread, attack my position - more than one now, then run off like a child...

                              For the casual reader, Carpe has never made a claim to being absolutely or objectively right in the moral sphere. Holding that position would be inconsistent.
                              That was never our discussion - which was any relative moral position you hold requires a circular argument.
                              Last edited by seer; 09-17-2020, 06:45 AM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                The sense of "I" appears to be an unchallengeable reality, but is it? Is it not possible that my sense of individuated being is simply an illusion, and "I" am simply one of many personalities of a being, each unaware of the existence of the others? My experience seems to unequivocally indicate that something exists, but it is not clear to me that this "something" is necessarily the individuated "I" that I experience.

                                Of course, that is for academic purposes. In reality, I accept what appears to me to be the most likely truth: that I exist as an individual, physical being with sentience. I just cannot definitively prove it.
                                Interesting. I'll have to think on that. But if I am "am simply one of many personalities of a being, each unaware of the existence of the others", doesn't that come to the same thing? I still exist, even if only as one of those personalities.

                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                You are a scoundrel and a knave, sir. Had I you before me, I would cast my gauntlet upon the ground!
                                Robert Heinlein said something like this (I wish I could find the quote, but I'll have to paraphrase) - certain objects, after development, reach a zenith, a point where a better instance of that object cannot be made (from memory he pointed to a particular aircraft...or was it a gun?). The only improvement is a radical change in design.

                                This bit is me, not Heinlein - The chocolate chip cookie is an example. They took the basic cookie and did all sorts of work on it. Made oatmeal cookies, gingerbread cookies, who knows what else. Then one day someone made the chocolate chip cookie - and that's where they should have stopped. There simply can be no better cookie. All others made since are just gilding the lilly.
                                America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                                Comment

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