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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Then give me a straight answer: is moral progress merely that which you happen to agree with. Yes or no?
    Already repeatedly addressed.
    America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      I was was specific Jim, the Maoist government murdered million of political dissenters, and other non desirables. And this was legal under that regime.

      https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...s-2081630.html
      No, you're talking about a civil war and the actions of a narcisistic a-moral autocrat who has singular power like, say a Donald Trump.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        I was was specific Jim, the Maoist government murdered million of political dissenters, and other non desirables. And this was legal under that regime.

        https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...s-2081630.html
        The US government and Christian colonialists murdered millions of Native Americans over several centuries - far longer than the Maoist period. And this was legal under that regime. Your point?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_massacres
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Seer's tactics in these sorts of threads (over the several years I've witnessed them) is to keep up the stamina to carry on for pages and pages of threads bullishly asking the same questions over and over (and never once actually defending his own idea that morality is objective and comes from his god - threads which have concentrated on this more he just continually tries to turn it into what we see here). Eventually the other poster(s) throw up their arms in exasperation and leave him to it - allowing him to claim a 'win'. He can't even articulate the moral realist point of view without misrepresenting it, even if he doesn't agree with it - his disingenuous questions he repeats above display this.


          Though they are almost entirely pointless exercises - seer won't ever 'get it' because he just doesn't want to - they can be illuminating for some of the 'lurkers'. I for one have nothing to add to the discussion that I haven't seen put forward by someone else before in the recent past - his threads with Carp for example were illuminating, as Carp's ability to explain sometimes complex issues and his patience with the seer's deliberate obtuseness was enlightening.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
            Subjective, yes. Arbitrary? I don't think so.
            Of course arbitrary since your moral sense and what you consider moral progress is largely the result of your place and time of birth. Not something you chose.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
              Seer's tactics in these sorts of threads (over the several years I've witnessed them) is to keep up the stamina to carry on for pages and pages of threads bullishly asking the same questions over and over (and never once actually defending his own idea that morality is objective and comes from his god - threads which have concentrated on this more he just continually tries to turn it into what we see here). Eventually the other poster(s) throw up their arms in exasperation and leave him to it - allowing him to claim a 'win'. He can't even articulate the moral realist point of view without misrepresenting it, even if he doesn't agree with it - his disingenuous questions he repeats above display this.
              I never claim a win, and I have yet to see how a moral realist grounds his argument. Perhaps you would like to try.


              Though they are almost entirely pointless exercises - seer won't ever 'get it' because he just doesn't want to - they can be illuminating for some of the 'lurkers'. I for one have nothing to add to the discussion that I haven't seen put forward by someone else before in the recent past - his threads with Carp for example were illuminating, as Carp's ability to explain sometimes complex issues and his patience with the seer's deliberate obtuseness was enlightening.
              Of course you are a honest broker...
              Last edited by seer; 09-01-2020, 06:44 AM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                No, you're talking about a civil war and the actions of a narcisistic a-moral autocrat who has singular power like, say a Donald Trump.
                We no Mao killed millions after he and his regime were fully in power. Never mind the prisons and re-education camps. So why was that wrong?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  We no Mao killed millions after he and his regime were fully in power. Never mind the prisons and re-education camps. So why was that wrong?
                  Take the hypothetical in mind, seer. Say there is no god, that morals are not objective divine laws. Do you think we would have adopted such laws anyway? If so, why? If not, why not? If you can answer that question then perhaps you'll figure out why certain behaviors are considered to be either right or wrong, good or evil. Your issue seems to be all about there being, or there not being, ultimate consequences for the breaker of moral laws rather than for the purpose moral laws serve. Do you think moral laws serve a human purpose, or do you think they are just arbitrary?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Take the hypothetical in mind, seer. Say there is no god, that morals are not objective divine laws. Do you think we would have adopted such laws anyway? If so, why? If not, why not? If you can answer that question then perhaps you'll figure out why certain behaviors are considered to be either right or wrong, good or evil. Your issue seems to be all about there being, or there not being, ultimate consequences for the breaker of moral laws rather than for the purpose moral laws serve. Do you think moral laws serve a human purpose, or do you think they are just arbitrary?
                    See Jim, that is relative isn't it. I was born in a largely Christian nation (at least it was) and in the West, so my upbringing influences my moral views. But if I was a Maoist in 1950s China my view may have been quite different. And yes I do think that the the moral law of God serves a purpose. As far as man's moral law it depends on what one's goals are. The Communist may have different goals than the British.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Of course arbitrary since your moral sense and what you consider moral progress is largely the result of your place and time of birth. Not something you chose.
                      It's also largely the result of human nature, particularly the ability to empathize with others, along with enlightened self-interest.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                        It's also largely the result of human nature, particularly the ability to empathize with others, along with enlightened self-interest.
                        Well human nature can be and is influenced by upbringing. Like growing up in 1930s Germany. Yes we have the ability to empathize, but we also have the ability to be cruel and selfish.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Well human nature can be and is influenced by upbringing. Like growing up in 1930s Germany.
                          True. That helps explain why moral progress can take so long.

                          Yes we have the ability to empathize, but we also have the ability to be cruel and selfish.
                          Also true. It take enlightenment to see that being cruel and selfish is counterproductive in the long run. And enlightenment takes time.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                            True. That helps explain why moral progress can take so long.
                            Really, progress again? Like I said, you unbelievers really sound like Theist at times. You really do believe in moral progress, and not in the relative sense. I suspect that you really believe there are things that are absolutely wrong and right. Moral ideals that are or should be universal.

                            Also true. It take enlightenment to see that being cruel and selfish is counterproductive in the long run. And enlightenment takes time.
                            Unless cruelty and selfishness is productive for you and your goals, in the long run.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Really, progress again? Like I said, you unbelievers really sound like Theist at times. You really do believe in moral progress, and not in the relative sense. I suspect that you really believe there are things that are absolutely wrong and right. Moral ideals that are or should be universal.
                              I suspect that's because you think that if something is subjective, then it doesn't really exist.

                              Unless cruelty and selfishness is productive for you and your goals, in the long run.
                              There may be a few people here and there who actually might be better off in the long run by being cruel and selfish.

                              Fortunately, they are generally outnumbered by the rest of us.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                                I suspect that's because you think that if something is subjective, then it doesn't really exist.
                                No you argue for moral truths/progress as fervently as any theist. Like there really is a moral standard out there that we should live up to or can discover.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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