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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    But you haven't seen moral progress, just moral change.
    There is ALWAYS moral change. Morality has never remained static throughout human history in ANY human culture – whether theist or secular. Morality, in any objective sense, does not exist and you have never been able to show that it does – despite your arguments to the contrary.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
      For the umpteenth time, it is subjective. Just like beauty, just like morality.
      So it is silly to call it progress. Is believing that the Mona Lisa is beautiful progress?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
        Perhaps it isn't, in your opinion. Perhaps you would prefer that our society condone things like racism, sexism, vigilantism, rape, torture, and slavery.

        I see it as progress that we no longer think such things are okay, at least as a society.
        It does matter what I believe about those behaviors. It is the fact that is that if moral progress is merely a matter of opinion then it is no more significant than a personal preference of ice cream. It seems to me that progress requires requires some kind of universal or objective goal to aim at, to live up to.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          It does matter what I believe about those behaviors. It is the fact that is that if moral progress is merely a matter of opinion then it is no more significant than a personal preference of ice cream. It seems to me that progress requires requires some kind of universal or objective goal to aim at, to live up to.
          It may seem that way to you, but it doesn't seem that way to me.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            It does matter what I believe about those behaviors. It is the fact that is that if moral progress is merely a matter of opinion then it is no more significant than a personal preference of ice cream. It seems to me that progress requires requires some kind of universal or objective goal to aim at, to live up to.
            Right. If a moral supports the best interests of society and thus the overall best interests of individual members thereof then the moral is more significant than a personal preference.

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            • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
              It may seem that way to you, but it doesn't seem that way to me.
              So moral progress, in the end, is only that which agrees with Stoic. Are you a god, I never met a good before...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Right. If a moral supports the best interests of society and thus the overall best interests of individual members thereof then the moral is more significant than a personal preference.
                Jim do we really have to go through this again?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  So moral progress, in the end, is only that which agrees with Stoic. Are you a god, I never met a good before...
                  No, moral progress is apparent to anyone whose morals mostly agree with mine. Which appears to be most of my society.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                    No, moral progress is apparent to anyone whose morals mostly agree with mine. Which appears to be most of my society.
                    Most of society presently, and only in particular societies. And mostly in Christian influenced societies. If you were born in Feudal Japan, or Mao's China you would have a different view of what constitutes moral progress. But the fact is it does come back to personal preference, if homosexual behavior was made illegal and Jim Crow was put back in effect you wouldn't see those as progress. Even if the majority supported both.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      So it is silly to call it progress. Is believing that the Mona Lisa is beautiful progress?
                      There's nothing silly about it, nor have you shown it is.

                      The idea of progressing toward more beauty has already been covered (post #1730 in this thread).

                      All of the questions you are asking me have already been addressed - why do you keep asking them over and over again?
                      America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        It does matter what I believe about those behaviors. It is the fact that is that if moral progress is merely a matter of opinion then it is no more significant than a personal preference of ice cream.
                        That's obviously incorrect, or we wouldn't have things like suburban beautification projects. Moral progress is subjective and is generally held to be that which is in accordance with the society. Allowing same sex marriage, for example, was predominantly seen as moral progress in our society. That's not to say that everybody viewed it as such; just the majority.

                        The idea of moral progress is as meaningful/significant/useful as the idea of morality. Both are completely subjective.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        It seems to me that progress requires requires some kind of universal or objective goal to aim at, to live up to.
                        Then I'm sorry, but you're wrong. That's not generally how we use the term.
                        America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Jim do we really have to go through this again?
                          Then refute the assertion that "if a moral is in the best interest of society and thus the overall best interest of the individuals therein, then it is more significant than a personal preference".

                          And be specific.

                          Take the moral argument against murder for example. It is obviously in the best interests of society as a whole that murder be seen as immoral, and it is in the overall best interests of the individuals therein that there is a moral against their being murdered. That's more significant than being "just a personal preference". That doesn't make the law against murder itself objective, but the effect of that law is objective.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                            There's nothing silly about it, nor have you shown it is.

                            The idea of progressing toward more beauty has already been covered (post #1730 in this thread).

                            All of the questions you are asking me have already been addressed - why do you keep asking them over and over again?
                            Actually no you haven't, why is finding the Mona Lisa beautiful progress over not finding the Mona Lisa beautiful?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                              That's obviously incorrect, or we wouldn't have things like suburban beautification projects. Moral progress is subjective and is generally held to be that which is in accordance with the society. Allowing same sex marriage, for example, was predominantly seen as moral progress in our society. That's not to say that everybody viewed it as such; just the majority.

                              The idea of moral progress is as meaningful/significant/useful as the idea of morality. Both are completely subjective.


                              Then I'm sorry, but you're wrong. That's not generally how we use the term.
                              If it is completely subjective then there can not be a universal standard to judge between differing opinions. Therefore no opinion is no more valid or correct than it's opposite. Of course most of us really believe that our moral opinions are right that they do have or should have universal application or reality. Most moral relativist I have debated cling to their moral views as tightly as a Theist...
                              Last edited by seer; 08-31-2020, 11:20 AM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Then refute the assertion that "if a moral is in the best interest of society and thus the overall best interest of the individuals therein, then it is more significant than a personal preference".

                                And be specific.

                                Take the moral argument against murder for example. It is obviously in the best interests of society as a whole that murder be seen as immoral, and it is in the overall best interests of the individuals therein that there is a moral against their being murdered. That's more significant than being "just a personal preference". That doesn't make the law against murder itself objective, but the effect of that law is objective.
                                Why for instance would it be immoral to kill a minority of dissenters to ensure social cohesion and order? As with the Maoist revolution?
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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