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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    I have never seen a good argument for moral realism
    Do you mean moral relativism? If so, I've never seen a good argument for anything else.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Then moral progress is relative and not real progress - just change.
    That moral progress is relative does not mean it's not real progress.
    America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
      Do you mean moral relativism? If so, I've never seen a good argument for anything else.
      No moral realism, you said: I think it's important to note that some atheists hold that there is an objective morality...

      They are generally moral realists.

      That moral progress is relative does not mean it's not real progress.
      That makes no sense. Who decides what real moral progress is?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post



        That makes no sense. Who decides what real moral progress is?
        In the broadest sense 'moral progress' is determined on the basis of the greatest, most comprehensive justice that's available for all. As Martin Luther King once said, "the arc of the moral universe is long but bend towards justice".
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          In the broadest sense 'moral progress' is determined on the basis of the greatest, most comprehensive justice that's available for all. .
          According to whom?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            No moral realism, you said: I think it's important to note that some atheists hold that there is an objective morality...

            They are generally moral realists.
            I beg your pardon; I misunderstood you. I agree that they are moral realists.

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            That makes no sense. Who decides what real moral progress is?
            Each individual. I believe allowing same sex marriage is moral progress; you might believe it's moral regress. Since all morality is subjective, that's the only way it can be.

            I sometimes find it useful to compare morality with beauty. Both lie in the "eye of the beholder". You might thing something moral while I think it immoral, the same way you might thing some scene (a sunset, or mountains, or whatever) to be plain, while I think it beautiful. Nevertheless, nobody thinks that because of beauty's subjectivity, it is a useless or worthless concept, and in many spheres (architecture, art, music) we strive toward beauty, even though it's subjective. And we might well (largely) agree that we have, in some particular avenue or endeavour, made progress toward beauty, despite some people disagreeing. I've no personal doubt that Beethoven's 5th is beautiful, and that the world in general is more beautiful because that piece of music exists in it. You might hate it. But there's no misunderstanding what I mean when I say that it is beautiful, and nobody would fail to understand why I think it beautiful, even if they do not, and nobody thinks that me calling it beautiful is meaningless.

            But can we ever determine that we (the world collectively, or that particular artist, or the other one over there) made "real progress" toward beauty? Only on a subjective basis. Beethoven made real progress toward it (IMO), as we (as a society) made real progress toward morality when we legalised same sex marriage. If you say that you disagree with either of those then fair enough. I don't believe that either you or I can be wrong on either of those points.

            Does that make sense?
            Last edited by Electric Skeptic; 08-29-2020, 03:48 PM.
            America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
              But can we ever determine that we (the world collectively, or that particular artist, or the other one over there) made "real progress" toward beauty? Only on a subjective basis. Beethoven made real progress toward it (IMO), as we (as a society) made real progress toward morality when we legalised same sex marriage. If you say that you disagree with either of those then fair enough. I don't believe that either you or I can be wrong on either of those points.

              Does that make sense?
              So real progress is subjective. Then something is only real progress if I agree with it. For instance I see homosexual behavior as moral regression - back to animalistic, carnal behavior. And if neither of us can't be wrong then there is no universal standard fore moral progress. Hence - it does not exist.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                So real progress is subjective. Then something is only real progress if I agree with it. For instance I see homosexual behavior as moral regression - back to animalistic, carnal behavior. And if neither of us can't be wrong then there is no universal standard fore moral progress. Hence - it does not exist.
                It exists just like beautification exists - it's just subjective.

                And regarding your signature - no, it's not. I have plenty of hope, and I sure have lots of things to do before my execution.
                America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                  It exists just like beautification exists - it's just subjective.
                  If there is no universal moral standard to move toward then how do you know when there is progress?

                  And regarding your signature - no, it's not. I have plenty of hope, and I sure have lots of things to do before my execution.
                  I suspect that in your more quite moments you know it is all hopeless in the end.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    If there is no universal moral standard to move toward then how do you know when there is progress?
                    THe same way I know what is morally wrong or right.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    I suspect that in your more quite moments you know it is all hopeless in the end.
                    Then you suspect wrongly.
                    America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      So real progress is subjective. Then something is only real progress if I agree with it. For instance I see homosexual behavior as moral regression - back to animalistic, carnal behavior. And if neither of us can't be wrong then there is no universal standard fore moral progress. Hence - it does not exist.
                      If I compare the morals of our society with those of previous societies, and the morals of more recent societies are generally closer to ours than the morals of older societies, it looks a lot like progress. If the changes in morals were periodic, that wouldn't seem much like progress.

                      But I agree, it's subjective. (But I think morality is subjective, so that's hardly a problem.) So what I see as progress, you might see as regression.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        According to whom?
                        According to the evolving necessary social behavior of humanity to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals. It always has as evidenced by how morals and ethics have developed and varied from culture to culture - including theist ones - over time.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                          THe same way I know what is morally wrong or right.
                          All you are saying is that if you agree with a moral position that is real progress. But to the Nazi eliminating the Jewish race is real progress. Who is right and why?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                            But I agree, it's subjective. (But I think morality is subjective, so that's hardly a problem.) So what I see as progress, you might see as regression.
                            Right, so moral progress, in any objective sense, does not exist.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              All you are saying is that if you agree with a moral position that is real progress.
                              No, if I agree with a moral position then I agree with a moral position.

                              But if I see a series of moral positions that over time get closer and closer to my own, that is progress, in my opinion.

                              But to the Nazi eliminating the Jewish race is real progress. Who is right and why?
                              The Nazis may have thought that eliminating the Jewish race was right. Naturally, I disagree.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Right, so moral progress, in any objective sense, does not exist.
                                Yep, same as morality.

                                And yet morality exists, as does moral progress.

                                Comment

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