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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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The problems with the extremes of Hard Determinism versus Libertarian Free Will.

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    This addresses the problem of Moral Responsibility. Moral Responsibility is universal I have repeated acknowledged that humans have limited freedom of choices, but the I believe the degree of limitations is not yet fully determined.
    There are obvious limits to our freedom of will that need to be taken into consideration like simply the limits of Natural Laws.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      This addresses the problem of Moral Responsibility. Moral Responsibility is universal I have repeated acknowledged that humans have limited freedom of choices, but the I believe the degree of limitations is not yet fully determined.
      And according to your religion moral responsibility corresponds to the degree of our freedom. Responsibility does not exist where there is no freedom.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        Where do thoughts exit? Chemicals are not thoughts. They are chemicals.
        They don't exists as things in themselves anymore than images do. But you avoided answering my question. If say you see your mom's image in your mind and as you say the image itself is real then it must be material, right? Or no? Or are you suggesting that you as an immaterial soul sees both the outer marterial reality directly as well as an inner immaterial reality?



        Right so you beg the question..
        I think you're begging the question.


        I did..
        Well yes, of course. But that doesn't answer the question as to whether it was a free or determined choice.

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        • Originally posted by JimL View Post

          They don't exists as things in themselves anymore than images do. But you avoided answering my question. If say you see your mom's image in your mind and as you say the image itself is real then it must be material, right? Or no? Or are you suggesting that you as an immaterial soul sees both the outer marterial reality directly as well as an inner immaterial reality?
          What I'm saying is that the mind is not material. Which is self evident.


          Well yes, of course. But that doesn't answer the question as to whether it was a free or determined choice.
          So why did the forces of nature cause me to pick A over B? What do those forces know of such choices?

          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post

            What I'm saying is that the mind is no material. Which is self evident.
            So in what sense do you differentiate the mind from the brain, and i mean other than the fact that the one is immaterial and the other material?



            So why did the forces of nature cause me to pick A over B? What do those forces know of such choices?
            Well I obviously don't know the answer to that, and I can't ask the forces of nature. But I suspect according to determinism the reason to be cause and effect which would include the brains interaction with its environment.
            I just bought a book on the subject titeled (Determined) by Robert Sapolsky, and I hope to have a better understanding and more detailed answer to that question. But that's all I got for ya right now.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post

              So in what sense do you differentiate the mind from the brain, and i mean other than the fact that the one is immaterial and the other material?
              I don't know what thoughts are made of, one thing seems certain they are not merely chemicals. In other words, you can't open up my brain an see, touch, or measure thoughts, images or preferences or desires. They are beyond the physical sciences. They are private.



              Well I obviously don't know the answer to that, and I can't ask the forces of nature. But I suspect according to determinism the reason to be cause and effect which would include the brains interaction with its environment.
              I just bought a book on the subject titeled (Determined) by Robert Sapolsky, and I hope to have a better understanding and more detailed answer to that question. But that's all I got for ya right now.
              OK... You may want to read this too: https://quillette.com/2023/11/06/rob...lsky-is-wrong/
              Last edited by seer; 04-15-2024, 05:09 AM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                I don't know what thoughts are made of, one thing seems certain they are not merely chemicals. In other words, you can't open up my brain an see, touch, or measure thoughts, images or preferences or desires. They are beyond the physical sciences. They are private.
                Well I think you're just stating simple and uneducated opinions. And that not meant to be overly critical, because we are, neither of us, educated on the subject enough to do otherwise. But to suggest that thoughts certainly don't come from neurons or in other words from brain states, while on the other hand assuming then that they must come from an immaterial mind which makes even less sense and neither is their even evidence of. Actually, evidence or not, the former idea makes a lot more sense than the latter.



                OK... You may want to read this too: https://quillette.com/2023/11/06/rob...lsky-is-wrong/
                OK, that's one man's opinion, but I'll read the book and deliberate upon and do my own, hopefully objective, analysis on. I hope to come back to this when I get a more educated perspective.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post

                  Well I think you're just stating simple and uneducated opinions. And that not meant to be overly critical, because we are, neither of us, educated on the subject enough to do otherwise. But to suggest that thoughts certainly don't come from neurons or in other words from brain states, while on the other hand assuming then that they must come from an immaterial mind which makes even less sense and neither is their even evidence of. Actually, evidence or not, the former idea makes a lot more sense than the latter.

                  I didn't say that brain states are not involved, but that there is obviously more. What does it mean to say that the favorite color of my brain chemicals is midnight blue? Why would chemicals have color preferences? But I do...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment

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