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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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The Hypocrisy of (some) Atheists...

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    Another non-answer. Yet Dawkins does call the God of the Bible malevolent, essentially evil. Yet he claims that we live in a universe where, at bottom, neither good or evil exist. And like I said he is free to have an opinion, but that opinion is no more than moral babble. He has no rational justification. And Roy, if you want to interact with my point feel free. but if you are just going to snipe then leave the thread.
    Yes, this is how Dawkins describes the God of the Bible with some justification, but I believe there are human tribal issues involved here a the human view of God. Yes "he claims that we live in a universe where, at bottom, neither good or evil exist " Actually he is correct the inherent nature of our physical existence including our universe are based on Natural Laws and indifferent to good and evil. The question of good and evil arises in the evolved nature of humanity whether God Created us or not. I believe God Created our physical existence essentially good, it remains essentially good neutral to any human concept of good and evil. What is called good and evil is the consequence of the nature of being human.

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    Why not? Wasn't Moses, who called for many of these battles, a manifestation of God?
    This was an interesting response I failed to see. I believe the Old Testament is not literally accurate, but reflects both God's Revelation and human response in the reality of the times. I believe warfare at the time was a natural tribal way, and the Hebrews were destined to have a Kingdom, but I am reluctant to except the extreme violence in the ancient days of Judaism were ordained by God, and believe humans have potentially spiritually evolved past this, but it is apparent tribalism still rules today resulting in many unneveedaasy wars an extreme violence.

    See post #268

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    If there were no God, there would be no universe.
    Assumption of belief without evidence.

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    To add: I believe God would not do such a thing.
    Why not? Wasn't Moses, who called for many of these battles, a manifestation of God?
    Last edited by seer; 02-02-2024, 08:23 AM.

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    Again, it does not then logically follow that God did not order such things. Unless you have the belief that God wouldn't do such a thing - but that is just a bias.
    To add: I believe God would not do such a thing.

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    Again, it does not then logically follow that God did not order such things. Unless you have the belief that God wouldn't do such a thing - but that is just a bias.
    This only follows if you consider the Pentateuch literal a history, and on this rational, also if you believe in a God that justifies cruel tribal wars amd worse to achieve Divine goals.

    Again, the more logical Biblically "in certain instances": is problematic, This is the reason I do not isolate the scripture, I consider all scripture in the context of the whole history of humanity.

    It is the rule that in history tribes justified their wars against other tribes appeal to the God of the manifest destiny of their religious beliefs often underlying their territorial claims,ne of thought relates to how human nature justifies their tribal wars as the Hamas war in Palestine.

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    Biblically "in certain instances": is problematic, This is the reason I do not isolate the scripture, I consider all scripture in the context of the whole history of humanity.

    It is the rule that in history tribes justified their wars against other tribes appeal to the God of the manifest destiny of their religious beliefs often underlying their territorial claims,
    Again, it does not then logically follow that God did not order such things. Unless you have the belief that God wouldn't do such a thing - but that is just a bias.

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    Because it was common does not mean it wasn't ordered by God in certain instances.
    Biblically "in certain instances": is problematic, This is the reason I do not isolate the scripture, I consider all scripture in the context of the whole history of humanity.

    It is the rule that in history tribes justified their wars against other tribes appeal to the God of the manifest destiny of their religious beliefs often underlying their territorial claims,

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    It is unlikely, because it is common in history for a tribe to appeal to Divine authority in wars like Putin does today appealing to Divine Manifest Destiny of the Russian Orthodox Church and Czarist Russian claims of Dominion over Eastern Europe and Russian Asia.
    Because it was common does not mean it wasn't ordered by God in certain instances.

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by seer
    Well yes if it was actually ordered by God.
    It is unlikely, because it is common in history for a tribe to appeal to Divine authority in wars like Putin does today appealing to Divine Manifest Destiny of the Russian Orthodox Church and Czarist Russian claims of Dominion over Eastern Europe and Russian Asia.

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  • mattbballman31
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Let me frame this with two quotes from Dawkins



    See the problem? It is not only Dawkins, but many non-believers hold this view. They will rail against these perceived Old Testament evils, yet they have no basis, no rational grounds to label anything evil. The objections are meaningless moral babble...
    Yep. Deep down, they're better than their professed, degenerate, ignorant philosophy gives them credit for.

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post

    Though there may be no objective standard of morality in atheism, as far as human beings are concerned there is no objective standard from the religious perspective either. That's why Moses, it is said, just came down the mountain with 10 that he could think off. But there is an objective goal which in my opinion is to maintain a civil society.
    How do you know that God didn't speak to Moses? But the fact is, theists do believe in objective moral truths, you don't. So by your own belief system the definition of justice is both arbitrary and relative.

    It comes from us silly.
    There are two golden rules Jim, 'do unto to others' and 'he with the most gold rules.' And in a morally relative world neither view is more correct or valid than the other.




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  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    Jim, in atheism there is no objective or universal definition of justice, so the strong define it to suit their goals. It's all relative - remember
    Though there may be no objective standard of morality in atheism, as far as human beings are concerned there is no objective standard from the religious perspective either. That's why Moses, it is said, just came down the mountain with 10 that he could think off. But there is an objective goal which in my opinion is to maintain a civil society.


    I'm not sure what that moral sense is or where it comes from in atheism, especially if moral relativism is true. It can't just be nature since our natural proclivities can be just as selfish and cruel as kind or giving.
    It comes from us silly.


    How was Trump an Authoritarian during his Presidency? What policies or laws did he pass or support that would make you think that? Yes you have Jan6 but he probably really did believe (like Hilary did when she lost) that the election was stolen. Let's face it, on the 6th he had thousands and thousands of people there - he could have taken control of the house and senate, and since the election was still not certified he still had control of the military. I guess he missed his big chance...
    Wannabe dictator seer. It proved to be too difficult for him to achieve in one term but give him and his corrupt handlers another shot at it and he will get there because he will feel he has a mandate to do so. His rhetoric alone is telling us that. He will put loyalist in lead positions in every democratic institution, people like General Flynn, Steve Bannon, Giuliani, Jeffery Clark and any other unprincipled loyalist that he can find, fire anyone who stands up for the Constitution and against him, and as we have seen there are very few in his party that will then stand up to him. He went nuts when that plan fell apart after losing the election and so attempted a political and violent coup. That failed as well. But give him another shot and he's telling you already, just so that you won't be shocked when he does it, exactly what he will do. "General Milley should be executed for treason."

    Have you ever noticed how he says: My Judges, My Generals, My Atty. General. My, my, my. Those are the words of a dictator.
    Last edited by JimL; 10-02-2023, 10:21 AM.

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post

    Well because the statement itself: "justice for the strong," makes no sense. That would be the opposite of what justice means.
    Jim, in atheism there is no objective or universal definition of justice, so the strong define it to suit their goals. It's all relative - remember?


    That's difficult to say, one could still be impressed with a moral sense in an otherwise atheist culture, but again with a religious God fearing culture it would be much easier and less reliant on each individuals parenting.
    I'm not sure what that moral sense is or where it comes from in atheism, especially if moral relativism is true. It can't just be nature since our natural proclivities can be just as selfish and cruel as kind or giving.


    I really don't know, if that's what the people want, if they choose Authoritarianism over Democracy then that's what they'll have to suffer with. They will, we all will, get what you deserve.
    How was Trump an Authoritarian during his Presidency? What policies or laws did he pass or support that would make you think that? Yes you have Jan6 but he probably really did believe (like Hilary did when she lost) that the election was stolen. Let's face it, on the 6th he had thousands and thousands of people there - he could have taken control of the house and senate, and since the election was still not certified he still had control of the military. I guess he missed his big chance...

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    Well justice for the strong seems to work in the animal kingdom, and in many countries even today. Why do you have a problem with that natural result?
    Well because the statement itself: "justice for the strong," makes no sense. That would be the opposite of what justice means.


    Morality did matter to me when I was an agnostic, but I was raised in a largely Christian nation, swimming in Christian ethics. I wonder if I would think the same if I was raised in Mao's China? Would you?
    That's difficult to say, one could still be impressed with a moral sense in an otherwise atheist culture, but again with a religious God fearing culture it would be much easier and less reliant on each individuals parenting.


    What will people like you do if Trump if reelected? BTW I'm supporting DeSantis in the primary...
    I really don't know, if that's what the people want, if they choose Authoritarianism over Democracy then that's what they'll have to suffer with. They will, we all will, get what you deserve.

    Leave a comment:

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