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Cogito ergo sum

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The Hypocrisy of (some) Atheists...

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post

    Nope, what you're saying is that if we weren't impressed with a belief in God then we would all be a Stalins, Hitlers, Putins or wannabes like Trumps. Thus we needed to create Gods in order to oppress our basest character.
    No, I said if there if no God it makes no difference whether we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa. I did not say, that therefore, we would all act like Stalin.

    Not really, the psychological factor works well in controlling the baser aspects of the believers nature in either case, whether you can see them or not. Remember, your God is omnipresent, he sees your every move, so be good.
    Still doesn't make sense. The threat of immediate physical harm or punishment would always be a better way to control than some abstract god we can not see... Alpha higher primates control the troop rather effectively without any reference to the gods...
    Last edited by seer; 09-21-2023, 11:50 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post

      No, I said if there if no God it makes no difference whether we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa. I did not say, that therefore, we would all act like Stalin.
      Well, it amounts to the same thing. What you were implying was that if ultimately it made no difference then why would anyone be a motherTeresa?

      Still doesn't make sense. The threat of immediate physical harm or punishment would always be a better way to control than some abstract god we can not see... Alpha higher primates control the troop rather effectively without any reference to the gods...
      When guns are involved the playing fields a leveled. You think Moses (the Alpha male) could have controlled "his people" without the invocation of his YHWY. He needed a God to back him up, to instill fear amongst "his people".

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post

        Well, it amounts to the same thing. What you were implying was that if ultimately it made no difference then why would anyone be a mother Teresa?
        No it doesn't. The point was, nothing that we do, morally or otherwise, makes any difference. Nothing we do is meaningful in the end, because in the end, we are insignificant creatures.


        When guns are involved the playing fields a leveled. You think Moses (the Alpha male) could have controlled "his people" without the invocation of his YHWY. He needed a God to back him up, to instill fear amongst "his people".
        Then how do Communists and Primates exercise control without a reference to gods? And the fact is, the population you need to control must first buy into the god thing - and that Jim is not a given...

        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          No it doesn't. The point was, nothing that we do, morally or otherwise, makes any difference. Nothing we do is meaningful in the end, because in the end, we are insignificant creatures.
          Yes, we are insignificant creatures living on a relatively insignificant speck of matter within a ginormous 14 billion lightyear expanse of a universe. There are billions and billions of galaxies within this universe with billions and billions of stars and planets in each and every one of them and you think that you and this tiny speck we call home/earth is significant?
          What always.seems to concern you is "in the end" "in the end". But what we do morally makes a difference to us, is meaningful to our lives in the here and now, not "in the end". In the end you won't be worrying about anything!


          Then how do Communists and Primates exercise control without a reference to gods? And the fact is, the population you need to control must first buy into the god thing - and that Jim is not a given...
          Oh, I didn't say that physical or material power isn't a factor in controlling people, but you don't need so much of that kind of power when you have the psychological power of God to back you up. Moses couldn't control the people so well until he impressed his will upon them through his secret knowledge of God his commandments.

          Comment



          • Has there ever been an ancient civilization that was atheist? I can't imagine that there would have been. That seems to be a 20th century idea.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
              Has there ever been an ancient civilization that was atheist? I can't imagine that there would have been. That seems to be a 20th century idea.
              There were individual ancient Greeks who were atheists, if memory serves. And the Old Testament speaks of those who claim 'there is no God.' But I think it was always a minority view.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post

                What always.seems to concern you is "in the end" "in the end". But what we do morally makes a difference to us, is meaningful to our lives in the here and now, not "in the end". In the end you won't be worrying about anything!
                Well since I don't believe I will have an end, what we do in this world echoes far beyond this vale of tears... And yes I'm sure what the Nazis did was meaningful to them...


                Oh, I didn't say that physical or material power isn't a factor in controlling people, but you don't need so much of that kind of power when you have the psychological power of God to back you up. Moses couldn't control the people so well until he impressed his will upon them through his secret knowledge of God his commandments.
                Look at it this way:

                1. A man with a club tells you must do A, if not he is going to hit you over the head. (you don't do A and get a bonk on the head)
                2. A man tells you to do A or an invisible being is going to hit you over the head. (you don't do A and nothing happens)

                Which is more effective?


                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Well since I don't believe I will have an end, what we do in this world echoes far beyond this vale of tears...
                  Exactly my point. Society needed to keep your baser instincts in check. How better to do that than to impress upon you the psychological fear of God and fiery hell or the hope of eternal bliss in heaven?

                  And yes I'm sure what the Nazis did was meaningful to them...
                  I'm sure Hitler thought so. But regardless of whether right or wrong, "meaning" in life has to do with the here and now, how our beliefs and actions/behaviors give meaning to our lives while we live.


                  Look at it this way:

                  1. A man with a club tells you must do A, if not he is going to hit you over the head. (you don't do A and get a bonk on the head)
                  2. A man tells you to do A or an invisible being is going to hit you over the head. (you don't do A and nothing happens)

                  Which is more effective?
                  You discount the psychological power of your beliefs. If you believe God is going to fry you in hell if you don't do what his mediator told you to do then a club is much less needed.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                    Has there ever been an ancient civilization that was atheist? I can't imagine that there would have been. That seems to be a 20th century idea.
                    Of course. Gods are culturally impressed beliefs, but there have always been thinking people who questioned and or denied those ideas. Heraclitus for instance was a Greek philosopher who believed all existence was not but atoms and the void. I doubt that many if any of the Greek Philosophers believed in the Greek God's though like Plato and Socrates they had there own ideas of ideal worlds of which ours is just a flawed mirror image of or some such nonsense. But no less than today there were believers and nonbelievers.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Exactly my point. Society needed to keep your baser instincts in check. How better to do that than to impress upon you the psychological fear of God and fiery hell or the hope of eternal bliss in heaven?
                      So we actually have baser instincts that need to be kept in check? Sounds like original sin...



                      I'm sure Hitler thought so. But regardless of whether right or wrong, "meaning" in life has to do with the here and now, how our beliefs and actions/behaviors give meaning to our lives while we live.
                      Except in your morally relative world, your meaning is morally no better than Hitler's, or Stalin's.


                      You discount the psychological power of your beliefs. If you believe God is going to fry you in hell if you don't do what his mediator told you to do then a club is much less needed.

                      Not really, immediate punishment is usually more effective than the threat of unseen deities. How long, after you violated this god's law and not punished, would it take to realize that you probably won't be punished? Besides like I said Communists and Monkeys exert societal control rather effectively without any reference to the gods.

                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        So we actually have baser instincts that need to be kept in check? Sounds like original sin...
                        Well, more like our original nature's.



                        Except in your morally relative world, your meaning is morally no better than Hitler's, or Stalin's.
                        Morals aren't so much about the individual, morals are about society and how we can better live together. Do unto others.......




                        Not really, immediate punishment is usually more effective than the threat of unseen deities. How long, after you violated this god's law and not punished, would it take to realize that you probably won't be punished? Besides like I said Communists and Monkeys exert societal control rather effectively without any reference to the gods.
                        Well sure. But you'd need a whole lot more policing without the psychological factor of an all seeing all powerful policeman in the sky.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post

                          Well, more like our original nature's.
                          Why do you have a problem with nature then? The way nature created us? I'm pretty sure that monkeys wouldn't have such a problem, if they had opinions...


                          Morals aren't so much about the individual, morals are about society and how we can better live together. Do unto others...
                          Well China is doing pretty well with no human rights and a totalitarian and burtal government. So why are you correct and them wrong?


                          Well sure. But you'd need a whole lot more policing without the psychological factor of an all seeing all powerful policeman in the sky.

                          Like I said in the Origin of Religion thread, I doubt that the people would have accepted the idea of the gods or the other worldly (which is universal) with out an inherent inclination for the mystical.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            Why do you have a problem with nature then? The way nature created us? I'm pretty sure that monkeys wouldn't have such a problem, if they had opinions...
                            I don't have a problem with nature, it's nature. But nature gave us brains in order to adapt to it which is why we created gods and morals.


                            Well China is doing pretty well with no human rights and a totalitarian and burtal government. So why are you correct and them wrong?
                            CHINA is a land mass. You obviously don't think think the chinese people are doing alright.



                            Like I said in the Origin of Religion thread, I doubt that the people would have accepted the idea of the gods or the other worldly (which is universal) with out an inherent inclination for the mystical.
                            People can be taught to believe anything. Just look at republicans, con men like Trump can teach them to believe all their lies.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post

                              I don't have a problem with nature, it's nature. But nature gave us brains in order to adapt to it which is why we created gods and morals.
                              But you do have a problem with nature, you don't seem to like our baser instincts, you think those need to be controlled.

                              CHINA is a land mass. You obviously don't think think the chinese people are doing alright.
                              China is also a Country, a nation. And they seem to be doing fine with no human rights and with a totalitarian and burtal government. So the threat of punishment, without reference to the gods, works quite well.

                              People can be taught to believe anything. Just look at republicans, con men like Trump can teach them to believe all their lies.
                              This coming from someone who probably voted for a senile old fool who is ruining this country.
                              Last edited by seer; 09-26-2023, 08:51 AM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                                But you do have a problem with nature, you don't seem to like our baser instincts, you think those need to be controlled.
                                Adaptation to our world is part of nature.

                                China is also a Country, a nation. And they seem to be doing fine with no human rights and with a totalitarian and burtal government. So the threat of punishment, without reference to the gods, works quite well.
                                Well, make up your mind. Are the Chinese people who you say are being brutalized and have no human rights doing just fine or not?

                                This coming from someone who probably voted for a senile old fool who is ruining this country.
                                A supposed senile old fool who has gotten more of his agenda, an agenda he was elected to accomplish, passed with a minority House of reps. and a 50- 50 Senate. If that's what a senile old fool can do, then I'll take the senile old fool. Though your idea that he is senile is just part of your brainwashing. You on the other hand voted for a corrupt, wannabe dictator, and knowing that he attempted to overthrow democracy, you will vote for him again.

                                Comment

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