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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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On Moral Realism

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    Good grief! Again! The evolutionary process does not care for or aim for our stability or survival. There is NO natural objective...
    I never said there was an natural intentional objective to evolution. Your intentional ignorance of science is appalling. The evidence for evolution is the objective foundation of morals, ethics and rule of law. There is no anthropomorphic intent in evolution.

    You have NOT responded to the references provided. To avoid miscommunication I changed the wording of the following.

    Again . . .

    Again my argument was previously stated. "The evidence of the natural objective basis of evolution of morals and ethics, and the rule of law with the survival of the species to maintain cooperation and stability of human cultures." I could care less about moral realism, because it does not explain anything concerning the objective origin of morals, ethics and rule of law.

    In other words science has an adequate explanation based on the objective evidence for the evolution of morals, ethics and rule of law. The references provided demonstrate this and you have not responded.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-24-2023, 07:55 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      In other words science has an adequate explanation based on the objective evidence for the evolution of morals, ethics and rule of law. The references provided demonstrate this and you have not responded.
      Actually no they haven't. Our closest relative the Chimp, rape, steal and slaughter with each other. So are those acceptable ethics? Why not? That is what the evolutionary process produced. Even in your own links/quotes the researchers do not make the jump that animal behavior can explain human behavior in any conclusive sense.
      Last edited by seer; 03-24-2023, 08:28 AM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        Good grief! Again! The evolutionary process does not care for or aim for our stability or survival. There is NO natural objective...
        Your anthropomorphic description of evolution is not how science nor I consider evolution. It is from your over active imagination based on a biased religious agenda.

        Please respond to the references cited.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

          Your anthropomorphic description of evolution is not how science nor I consider evolution. It is from your over active imagination based on a biased religious agenda.

          Please respond to the references cited.
          What are you taking about? There is no aim in the evolutionary process, no goal. If you think there is tell us - I'll be waiting...

          To quote an actual biologist, Dawkins:
          In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but a blind, pitiless indifference.
          Last edited by seer; 03-24-2023, 08:43 AM.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post

            What are you taking about? There is no aim in the evolutionary process, no goal. If you think there is tell us - I'll be waiting...

            To quote an actual biologist, Dawkins:
            True, there is no AIM in the evolutionary ptocess, and NEVER claimed there was, but this does not address the real issues here concerning evolution previously addressed in many threads. It is the scientific objective basis for evolution that determines our behavior morals and ethics have evolved, Evolution has determined that life and humans evolved based on natural selection in responding to adapting to changing environment, and NOT any anthropomorphic purpose or aim.

            Please respond to the references cited.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-24-2023, 11:07 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              True, there is no AIM in the evolutionary ptocess, and NEVER claimed there was, but this does not address the real issues here concerning evolution previously addressed in many threads. It is the scientific objective basis for evolution that determines our behavior morals and ethics have evolved, Evolution has determined that life and humans evolved based on natural selection in responding to adapting to changing environment, and NOT any anthropomorphic purpose or aim.

              Please respond to the references cited.
              Shuny, what behaviors are you speaking of? Our nearest primate cousin (chimpanzee) practice rape (forced sex), and stealing from their fellow chimps, that actually gains the thief greater status in the troop. Humans however have generally found those behaviors to be morally wrong. And that is the point - only human's assign moral qualifications to behaviors. Or laws restraining these behaviors. Again laws are conceptual, abstracts - they are not physical. So we attach abstract moral judgements to physical behaviors. And as far as we know, no animal has that ability. And BTW Shuny, you believe that God has sent certain teachers throughout history to bring moral teachings to man. So obviously our moral sense can not and is not only the result of natural forces.


              The Manifestations of God are appearances of the Divine Spirit or Holy Spirit in a series of personages, and as such, they perfectly reflect the attributes of the divine into the human world for the progress and advancement of human morals and civilization through the agency of that same Spirit.

              "The Concept of Manifestation in the Baháʼí Writings"
              Last edited by seer; 03-24-2023, 11:35 AM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                Shuny, what behaviors are you speaking of? Our nearest primate cousin (chimpanzee) practice rape (forced sex), and stealing from their fellow chimps, that actually gains the thief greater status in the troop. Humans however have generally found those behaviors to be morally wrong. And that is the point - only human's assign moral qualifications to behaviors. Or laws restraining these behaviors. Again laws are conceptual, abstracts - they are not physical. So we attach abstract moral judgements to physical behaviors. And as far as we know, no animal has that ability. And BTW Shuny, you believe that God has sent certain teachers throughout history to bring moral teachings to man. So obviously our moral sense can not and is not only the result of natural forces.
                Humans force rape and steal from their fellow humans,, but no in chips do not gain in stature from theft, but humans often do. Please cite the source where you claim chimps gain in stature from theft.

                The Baha'i Faith believes in the harmony of science and religion. The laws of Nature and natural processes are determine in Creation by God, and evolution is a natural process.

                The bold above is false according to Kramer and the sources I jave cited that you have refused to respond to.

                This has nothing to do with any of the above. Please respond to References cited. You have failed to provide a source that is contrary to Kramer and the references I cited. You only dodge the issues with silence and changing the subject.

                Still waiting . . .
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                  Humans force rape and steal from their fellow humans,, but no in chips do not gain in stature from theft, but humans often do. Please cite the source where you claim chimps gain in stature from theft.

                  Stealing food

                  The main reason chimps steal food from one another is to help their individual status. Within each villa, there are different rankings among the chimps. In most cases, adult males hold a higher ranking, meaning they are the leader of their troop and therefore have more privileges. The other chimps within the group have different rankings depending on their sex and the amount of time they have lived in the villa.

                  Often, the lower-ranking chimps will allow their food to be stolen by the higher-ranking chimps. This helps their status within the troop and shows the higher-ranking chimp respect. Sharing food with a higher-ranking also helps chimps move up within their troop’s ranking. However, if a lower-ranking chimp steals food from another chimp, it hurts their ranking. The younger chimps tend to steal food without realizing the repercussions, but they usually get put in their place by a more dominant chimp when this happens. Everyone has to learn somewhere!

                  https://projectchimps.org/a_chimps_g...stealing_food/

                  The Baha'i Faith believes in the harmony of science and religion. The laws of Nature and natural processes are determine in Creation by God, and evolution is a natural process.
                  Nope, not letting you off the hook, if God in fact sent teachers to progress our moral understanding then evolution was not sufficient to explain human ethics. Period


                  The bold above is false according to Kramer and the sources I jave cited that you have refused to respond to.


                  Let start here - are ethics or morals physical? If so how?
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post


                    Stealing food
                    Behavior, morals and ethics evolve. Respond to the references cited.






                    Nope, not letting you off the hook, if God in fact sent teachers to progress our moral understanding then evolution was not sufficient to explain human ethics. Period.
                    No hook to get off of. The Baha'i Faith believes in the harmony of science and religion. The laws of Nature and natural processes are determined in Creation by God, and evolution is a natural process.

                    We have evolved physically, spiritually, mentally including behavior, morals, ethics and rules of law.



                    Let start here - are ethics or morals physical? If so how?
                    No, behaviors, morals and ethics evolve, not the issue here. It does not need to be physical to evolve. Though the brain evolves and changes in behavior, morals and ethics evolve with the brain. Respond to the references as cited.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                      No hook to get off of. The Baha'i Faith believes in the harmony of science and religion. The laws of Nature and natural processes are determined in Creation by God, and evolution is a natural process.

                      We have evolved physically, spiritually, mentally including behavior, morals, ethics and rules of law.
                      Good, so you agree that we needed spiritual or divine influence to morally improve. That the evolutionary process was not sufficient to produce the ethics we find in humanity today.





                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        Good, so you agree that we needed spiritual or divine influence to morally improve. That the evolutionary process was not sufficient to produce the ethics we find in humanity today.
                        Again no . . . God Created the Laws of Nature and natural processes, which are sufficient for the processes of evolution to produce the morals and ethics we find in humanity today.

                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                          Again no . . . God Created the Laws of Nature and natural processes, which are sufficient for the processes of evolution to produce the morals and ethics we find in humanity today.
                          That is false, our ethical systems are grounded in our intellect, formed by our rationality. And that is divinely given as your religion states.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            That is false, our ethical systems are grounded in our intellect, formed by our rationality. And that is divinely given as your religion states.
                            Again false as cited,

                            Again no . . . God Created the Laws of Nature and natural processes, which are sufficient for the processes of evolution to produce the morals and ethics we find in humanity today.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                              Again false as cited,

                              Again no . . . God Created the Laws of Nature and natural processes, which are sufficient for the processes of evolution to produce the morals and ethics we find in humanity today.
                              Not it isn't - God had to, by the action of the Holy Spirt, give man an intellect. And without that intellect you have no moral laws.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                                Not it isn't - God had to, by the action of the Holy Spirt, give man an intellect. And without that intellect you have no moral laws.
                                Again false as cited,

                                Again no . . . God Created the Laws of Nature and natural processes, which are sufficient for the processes of evolution to produce the morals and ethics we find in humanity today.

                                Your nit picking frog hairs on terminology. Our physical existence is a product of Natural Laws and natural processes that is reflected in the knowledge of science. There is nothing in the definition of'Nature' ot 'natural' that negates that out physical existence and the Laws of Nature. are ultimately Created by God.

                                Again . . .
                                It is unfortunate that your world view is crippled by your biased agenda and rejection of science as it describes our natural existence.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-28-2023, 01:37 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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