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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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On Moral Realism

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    You really are dense, if we pass a law saying that rape is wrong, that is a subjective belief.
    It is unfortunate that you consider rape a subjective belief. IT is well defined in most legal systems, but unfortunately despite the specific objectivity of the definition of rape historically some countries and cultures simply fail to enforce rape laws.

    In doing some research I found some interesting references, unfortunately they are long and involved, mostly legal books. The conclusion in general is that legal systems are fundamentally objective , but with subjective aspects related to what is moral and ethical in society that determines the laws are written and enforced. The problems with enforcing rape is an example even though objectively defined some countries culturally will not have adequate laws and prosecution is often not achieved.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      It is unfortunate that you consider rape a subjective belief. IT is well defined in most legal systems, but unfortunately despite the specific objectivity of the definition of rape historically some countries and cultures simply fail to enforce rape laws.

      In doing some research I found some interesting references, unfortunately they are long and involved, mostly legal books. The conclusion in general is that legal systems are fundamentally objective , but with subjective aspects related to what is moral and ethical in society that determines the laws are written and enforced. The problems with enforcing rape is an example even though objectively defined some countries culturally will not have adequate laws and prosecution is often not achieved.
      I wanted to add one source stated that the concepts of objective and subjective do not apply well to laws and legal systems. The following reference is a book that goes into detail concerning the objectivity in the rule of law.

      Source: https://lawcat.berkeley.edu/record/93036?ln=en



      What is objectivity? What is the rule of law? Are the operations of legal systems objective? If so, in what ways and to what degrees are they objective? Does anything of importance depend on the objectivity of law? These are some of the principal questions addressed by Matthew H. Kramer in this lucid and wide-ranging study that introduces readers to vital areas of philosophical enquiry. As Kramer shows, objectivity and the rule of law are complicated phenomena, each comprising a number of distinct though overlapping dimensions. Although the connections between objectivity and the rule of law are intimate, they are also densely multi-faceted.

      © Copyright Original Source



      I learned a lot spending time reading on line legal references on this, but many I cannot cite.

      I definitely do not believe as a result of my investigation that laws and legal systems, because the definition of subjective is 'of the mind only.'
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-18-2023, 12:22 PM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

        It is unfortunate that you consider rape a subjective belief. IT is well defined in most legal systems, but unfortunately despite the specific objectivity of the definition of rape historically some countries and cultures simply fail to enforce rape laws.

        In doing some research I found some interesting references, unfortunately they are long and involved, mostly legal books. The conclusion in general is that legal systems are fundamentally objective , but with subjective aspects related to what is moral and ethical in society that determines the laws are written and enforced. The problems with enforcing rape is an example even though objectively defined some countries culturally will not have adequate laws and prosecution is often not achieved.
        The conclusion in general is that legal systems are fundamentally objective , but with subjective aspects related to what is moral and ethical in society that determines the laws are written and enforced

        Thank you, you made my point. Beforeanything becomes law you must subjectively decide what is good or right or wrong. 'Objective' law is grounded on the subjective.

        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          The conclusion in general is that legal systems are fundamentally objective , but with subjective aspects related to what is moral and ethical in society that determines the laws are written and enforced

          Thank you, you made my point. Before anything becomes law you must subjectively decide what is good or right or wrong. 'Objective' law is grounded on the subjective.
          Incomplete citation and dishonest manipulation of what I posted, but yes 'The conclusion in general is that legal systems are fundamentally objective.' You have ignored my academic 'rule of Law' reference.

          None of my posts nor legal references conclude 'Objective Law is grounded in the subjective.' In fact their conclusion is the reverse. The conclusion is the 'rule of law is fundamentally objective with subjective aspects.' I did make a slight error in wording that made you jump and misrepresent me: 'but with subjective aspects related to what is moral and ethical in society that determines [how some} laws are written and enforced.'

          I provided reference concerning the 'rule of law' and you misrepresented what I posted, You have never presented a reference to support your personal opinion and assertions.

          Still waiting for proper citation of what I posted, and references you provide concerning the 'rule of law.'
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-18-2023, 01:17 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            Incomplete citation and dishonest manipulation of what I posted, but yes 'The conclusion in general is that legal systems are fundamentally objective.' You have ignored my academic 'rule of Law' reference.

            None of my posts nor legal references conclude 'Objective Law is grounded in the subjective.' In fact their conclusion is the reverse. The conclusion is the 'rule of law is fundamentally objective with subjective aspects.' I did make a slight error in wording that made you jump and misrepresent me: 'but with subjective aspects related to what is moral and ethical in society that determines [how some} laws are written and enforced.'

            I provided reference concerning the 'rule of law' and you misrepresented what I posted, You have never presented a reference to support your personal opinion and assertions.

            Still waiting for proper citation of what I posted, and references you provide concerning the 'rule of law.'
            Again, you don't write laws against rape UNLESS you first determine that rape is wrong. And that is always subjective.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post

              Again, you don't write laws against rape UNLESS you first determine that rape is wrong. And that is always subjective.
              Not true based on rule of law reference provide. Laws concerning rape are based on a objective factual information of sexual assaults on the victum. Without references your opinion is 'of the mind only'' therefore subjective.

              Again

              Source: https://lawcat.berkeley.edu/record/93036?ln=en


              What is objectivity? What is the rule of law? Are the operations of legal systems objective? If so, in what ways and to what degrees are they objective? Does anything of importance depend on the objectivity of law? These are some of the principal questions addressed by Matthew H. Kramer in this lucid and wide-ranging study that introduces readers to vital areas of philosophical enquiry. As Kramer shows, objectivity and the rule of law are complicated phenomena, each comprising a number of distinct though overlapping dimensions. Although the connections between objectivity and the rule of law are intimate, they are also densely multi-faceted.

              © Copyright Original Source
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-19-2023, 07:32 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                Not true based on rule of law reference provide. Laws concerning rape are based on a objective factual information of sexual assaults on the victum. Without references your opinion is 'of the mind only'' therefore subjective.
                That is just silly! You have to first believe that what happens to the victim is a wrong! That is the product of subjective minds. Like I said some subjective minds don't believe that marital rape is a wrong, some subjective minds do! So not all minds agree that rape is wrong - therefore it is subjective by definition.


                ob·jec·tive (əb-jĕktĭv)
                Share: Tweet


                adj.1. a. Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real: objective reality.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post

                  That is just silly! You have to first believe that what happens to the victim is a wrong! That is the product of subjective minds. Like I said some subjective minds don't believe that marital rape is a wrong, some subjective minds do! So not all minds agree that rape is wrong - therefore it is subjective by definition.



                  Your definition describes what the citation of 'rules of law is foundation of law.

                  Your view remains subjective without references, therefore 'subjective.' of the mind only.

                  Still waiting . . .
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                    Your definition describes what the citation of 'rules of law is foundation of law.

                    Your view remains subjective without references, therefore 'subjective.' of the mind only.

                    Still waiting . . .
                    Still waiting for what?

                    adj.1. a. Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real: objective reality.


                    1. existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions
                    are there objective moral values?

                    OBJECTIVE: that which exists in its own right independent of an evaluating mind. Opposed to SUBJECTIVE.

                    definition 2: having reality or tangible existence independent of the observer.
                    Deciding that rape is a wrong is a belief that is dependent on a subjective mind, therefore subjective...
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post

                      Still waiting for what?
                      An academic source of 'rule of law' supporting your selective subjective opinion concerning the nature of the 'rule of law' based on your religious agenda. Apparently none forthcoming, only your subjective opinion.

                      Deciding that rape is a wrong is a belief that is dependent on a subjective mind, therefore subjective...
                      Subjective opinion not based on an independent academic source.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                        An academic source of 'rule of law' supporting your selective subjective opinion concerning the nature of the 'rule of law' based on your religious agenda. Apparently none forthcoming, only your subjective opinion.



                        Subjective opinion not based on an independent academic source.
                        You are dense, by definition (and I included a few) the objective only exists apart from MINDS. And an 'independent academic source' is also mind dependent and subjective - BY DEFINITION... Existing independent of or external to the mind
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post

                          You are dense, by definition (and I included a few) the objective only exists apart from MINDS. And an 'independent academic source' is also mind dependent and subjective - BY DEFINITION... Existing independent of or external to the mind
                          Still no references to justify you subjective assertions . . .

                          Still waiting . . .
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                            Still no references to justify you subjective assertions . . .

                            Still waiting . . .
                            So everything you claim about the law is by definition subjective.

                            I gave you four dictionary definitions. Objective is that which is: Existing independent of or external to the mind So everything you claim about the law is by definition subjective. And you cited Kramer in you link, but it never says how law is objective. It is mere assertion.
                            Last edited by seer; 03-19-2023, 01:41 PM.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              So everything you claim about the law is by definition subjective.

                              I gave you four dictionary definitions. Objective is that which is: Existing independent of or external to the mind So everything you claim about the law is by definition subjective. And you cited Kramer in you link, but it never says how law is objective. It is mere assertion.
                              IF you object to Kramer read the book. He is a recognized authority on the 'rule of law.'

                              You have not offered any reference to contradict Kramer. Yes you gave five definitions, so what?!?!?!, but yes fundamentally the 'rule of law remains fundamentally objective by your definitions. The rule of law is based on objective fact through history of law and not 'of the mind only.'

                              References please to support your 'opinion' based on a religious agenda.

                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                                IF you object to Kramer read the book. He is a recognized authority on the 'rule of law.'

                                You have not offered any reference to contradict Kramer. Yes you gave five definitions, so what?!?!?!, but yes fundamentally the 'rule of law remains fundamentally objective by your definitions. The rule of law is based on objective fact through history of law and not 'of the mind only.'

                                References please to support your 'opinion' based on a religious agenda.
                                Shuny no, law is not objective, not by definition, by definition any belief that is mind dependent is subjective. It was created by the subjective human mind. When something is objective it is actual or real apart from what anyone thinks or believes. The sun is objective, laws and moral beliefs are not. That is why laws differ, some have no problem with marital rape others do. Laws do not exist independently of the human mind, they are the product of the human mind. Just because you put them on paper and codify them does not change the fact that they originally are subjectively created by human minds. If there were no human minds, the sun would still objectively exist, if there were no human minds the law could not exist.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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