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Cogito ergo sum

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Argument Against Miracles

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    I was responding to Faber's point about miracles, I wasn't arguing for the reality of miracles. The point of this thread is to demonstrate that there are no good empirical or logical arguments against the possibility of miracles.
    Someone could try jumping from the tenth storey and see what happens.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    And I'm not sure what you mean by contemporary socio-religious context - I doubt that most religionists of that time would have accepted the idea of a man walking on water. It would have shocked them as much as it does us.
    Throughout the Graeco-Roman and Jewish spheres the belief in in magical practises and the performance of miracles was commonplace and was part of the contemporary context . A belief in omens, portents, the use of exorcism against evil spirits, imprecations involving deities [including curses] divination, and the wearing protective amulets all under-laid the fabric of society.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      Someone could try jumping from the tenth storey and see what happens.
      How does that prove anything? Again, that is inductive reasoning.

      Throughout the Graeco-Roman and Jewish spheres the belief in in magical practises and the performance of miracles was commonplace and was part of the contemporary context . A belief in omens, portents, the use of exorcism against evil spirits, imprecations involving deities [including curses] divination, and the wearing protective amulets all under-laid the fabric of society.
      Well religious beliefs, or beliefs in the supernatural, still dominate the world. So I'm not sure what your point is. They understood that men do not or can not walk on water as well as we do.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post

        How does that prove anything? Again, that is inductive reasoning.
        A miracle might take place causing that individual to [unaided] float upwards.

        Originally posted by seer View Post

        Well religious beliefs, or beliefs in the supernatural, still dominate the world. So I'm not sure what your point is.
        Unfortunately a belief in the irrational has never been entirely eradicated from human thinking

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        They understood that men do not or can not walk on water as well as we do.
        And what attested historical evidence [other than from the Christian texts] are you presenting in support of that comment?

        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          A miracle might take place causing that individual to [unaided] float upwards.
          That is a possibility.

          Unfortunately a belief in the irrational has never been entirely eradicated from human thinking
          Yes like the irrational belief that nature created human conscious awareness. We agree.

          And what attested historical evidence [other than from the Christian texts] are you presenting in support of that comment?
          I don't need any - I'm not making a positive case for miracles. Again HA, try and stay on topic.

          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post

            That is a possibility.
            On what attested evidence?

            Originally posted by seer View Post

            Yes like the irrational belief that nature created human conscious awareness. We agree.
            My comments were directed to your remark that:

            religious beliefs, or beliefs in the supernatural, still dominate the world


            Originally posted by seer View Post

            I don't need any - I'm not making a positive case for miracles. Again HA, try and stay on topic.
            You wrote this:

            I doubt that most religionists of that time would have accepted the idea of a man walking on water. It would have shocked them as much as it does us.


            On what attested extraneous evidence were you premising that comment? People in the ancient world believed all sorts of things that many today would recognise as irrational.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #36
              Here's the problem...

              If something violated natural laws, then scientists will

              1. Deny it actually happened because nothing can violate natural laws
              2. If they can't deny it, they will just say that it actually did obey natural laws and they just haven't figured out how yet. For example claiming that they just don't understand the natural laws involved yet.

              Therefore nothing can violate natural laws.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                On what attested evidence?
                Does it matter? It either happened or it didn't.

                My comments were directed to your remark that:

                religious beliefs, or beliefs in the supernatural, still dominate the world


                You wrote this:

                I doubt that most religionists of that time would have accepted the idea of a man walking on water. It would have shocked them as much as it does us.


                On what attested extraneous evidence were you premising that comment? People in the ancient world believed all sorts of things that many today would recognise as irrational.
                So what is your point? How does any of this deal with the point in the OP? People being more or less credulous tells us nothing about the possibly of miracles. Non sequitur...

                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Does it matter? It either happened or it didn't.
                  Given that ancient people believed in "miracles" that today have perfectly explanations one may draw the conclusion it never happened.

                  Originally posted by seer View Post


                  So what is your point? How does any of this deal with the point in the OP? People being more or less credulous tells us nothing about the possibly of miracles. Non sequitur...
                  You have answered your own question. In the ancient past it was common for people to believe in magic and miracles and many people today remain credulous concerning such phenomena.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    Given that ancient people believed in "miracles" that today have perfectly explanations one may draw the conclusion it never happened.
                    People believe in miracles today too - so? Again, your skepticism tells us nothing about whether miracles are possible or not.


                    You have answered your own question. In the ancient past it was common for people to believe in magic and miracles and many people today remain credulous concerning such phenomena.
                    And what exactly does that have to do with whether miracles are possible or not?

                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I assume that since A equaled A yesterday, then A will equal A today.

                      That is at least an inductive spin on the law of reality.

                      Is there a view out there that reality is ultimately inductive? Isn't that the atheist view?



                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        People believe in miracles today too - so?
                        Some people also believe in demons, fairies, angels, and alien abductions. Your point?.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And what exactly does that have to do with whether miracles are possible or not?
                        Again that depends on what is understood by a miracle. You described a miracle to be something that is:

                        A violation of known natural laws.


                        My emphasis.

                        Hence to a technologically less advanced society living in a remote part of the world whose experience of "known natural laws" with regard to infection will invariably lead to death, a course of antibiotics will be a "miracle".

                        However, you and I both know it to be nothing of the sort.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          Some people also believe in demons, fairies, angels, and alien abductions. Your point?.
                          No, what is your point! You brought this all up. What human beings believe, rightly or not, tells us nothing about the possibility of miracles...

                          Again that depends on what is understood by a miracle. You described a miracle to be something that is:

                          A violation of known natural laws.


                          My emphasis.

                          Hence to a technologically less advanced society living in a remote part of the world whose experience of "known natural laws" with regard to infection will invariably lead to death, a course of antibiotics will be a "miracle".

                          However, you and I both know it to be nothing of the sort.

                          But again, whether primitives would have mistaken a modern cure for a miracle tells us nothing about whether miracles are possible or not. Which is the subject of this thread.


                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                            I assume that since A equaled A yesterday, then A will equal A today.

                            That is at least an inductive spin on the law of reality.

                            Is there a view out there that reality is ultimately inductive? Isn't that the atheist view?


                            As far as A=A, I believe that there needs to be, and there are, universe logical absolutes.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              To me a miracle is divine intervention. It doesn't have to violate physical laws per se. Just God intervening to make something happen that normally would not.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post

                                No, what is your point! You brought this all up. What human beings believe, rightly or not, tells us nothing about the possibility of miracles.
                                No attested and demonstrable evidence has ever been presented regarding miracles. Likewise no attested and demonstrable evidence has ever been presented for the existence of pixies. We may therefore conclude that miracles do not take place and pixies do not exist

                                Originally posted by seer View Post


                                But again, whether primitives would have mistaken a modern cure for a miracle tells us nothing about whether miracles are possible or not. Which is the subject of this thread.

                                My emphasis A nice example of western [and possibly racial] cultural superiority there. Such people are "primitives" are they? These groups survive in environments which would probably see you dead within the week.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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