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Argument Against Miracles

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  • Argument Against Miracles

    Hume:

    “A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature; and as a firm and unalterable experience has established these laws, the proof against a miracle, from the very nature of the fact, is as entire as any argument from experience can possibly be imagined."

    First formulated by David Hume, the problem of induction questions our reasons for believing that the future will resemble the past, or more broadly it questions predictions about unobserved things based on previous observations. This inference from the observed to the unobserved is known as "inductive inferences", and Hume, while acknowledging that everyone does and must make such inferences, argued that there is no non-circular way to justify them.
    So miracles are a violation of the laws of nature, but our understanding of those laws are based on the circular reasoning of induction. That is not sound reasoning for accepting his argument against miracles.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    There is no escape from circularity without God. Nor is there escape from infinite regressions.



    No one can logically, rationally, deny that God exists.

    Comment


    • #3
      I must disagree with both posts.

      I miracle does not need to be a violation of the laws of nature. God can just as easily use natural laws or physics to bring about His will as he can by interrupting the laws of physics. Looking at it another way, the laws of physics are just as much part of God's will.

      As far as denying that God exists, that was once myself a good many years ago, decades ago. It isn't logic that brought me to a belief in the existence of God and trust in Jesus as my savior. It was the Scripture and the overwhelming influence of the Spirit of God. I have had discussions with other Christians about apologetics or Christian evidences. I even know some believers who became such due to apologetics. And if God wishes to use that to convert a sinner, praise the Lord and so be it. Myself, I'm a skeptic, and always have been. My being a Christian on faith is probably the only exception that I can think of.
      When I Survey....

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Faber View Post
        I miracle does not need to be a violation of the laws of nature. God can just as easily use natural laws or physics to bring about His will as he can by interrupting the laws of physics. Looking at it another way, the laws of physics are just as much part of God's will.
        I think walking on water or bringing back someone from the dead would be a violation of natural law as WE understand them. There may be higher physical laws or principles that could be employed to override said laws as we understand them. But that in a sense would still be a miracle to us.

        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #5
          I think it's proof, not just evidence. I can't put it into words though.

          It's rational and logical proof. However, one can understand this and know this logically and rationally, yet deny it through their actions, e.g. knowing God exists, yet engaging in actions you know are wrong.

          It may be proof, and it looks like it as far as I can conceptualize philosophy. That is, the whole beginnings of sound logic, and if there is no absolute and immutable grounds for it, then there is no real beginning point to know truth, nor can there even be absolute truth. That may or may not matter to you. That is the furthest that the human mind can imagine though. The greatest ideal imaginable is absolute truth. Big deal you might say. You cannot escape the circle of inductive reasoning unless you begin with this greatest ideal imaginable, absolute truth. You have to start with a fixed standard if there is to be any real beginning point to knowledge. Again, this may or may not matter to you. It certainly isn't too practical in my opinion. It is however, in my opinion, proof that God exists. Not evidence, but proof.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
            I think it's proof, not just evidence. I can't put it into words though.

            It's rational and logical proof. However, one can understand this and know this logically and rationally, yet deny it through their actions, e.g. knowing God exists, yet engaging in actions you know are wrong.

            It may be proof, and it looks like it as far as I can conceptualize philosophy. That is, the whole beginnings of sound logic, and if there is no absolute and immutable grounds for it, then there is no real beginning point to know truth, nor can there even be absolute truth. That may or may not matter to you. That is the furthest that the human mind can imagine though. The greatest ideal imaginable is absolute truth. Big deal you might say. You cannot escape the circle of inductive reasoning unless you begin with this greatest ideal imaginable, absolute truth. You have to start with a fixed standard if there is to be any real beginning point to knowledge. Again, this may or may not matter to you. It certainly isn't too practical in my opinion. It is however, in my opinion, proof that God exists. Not evidence, but proof.
            And that is why you will see atheists deny that the laws of logic are universal or absolute since they point to an absolute rational and moral authority i.e.God. In the process they cut the branch they are sitting on, they have ground for any moral or rational claim.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              It points to the North Star, which exists in any sky.









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              • #8
                Only north of the equator.
                When I Survey....

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Faber View Post
                  Only north of the equator.
                  No, in any possible sky. It's like saying any possible world. A North Star of sorts exists in the makeup of the human psyche.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post




                    So miracles are a violation of the laws of nature, but our understanding of those laws are based on the circular reasoning of induction. That is not sound reasoning for accepting his argument against miracles.
                    Does this entity operate outside of human constructs? Or is it confined by those?

                    One also has to define what one understands by a "miracle".
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Does this entity operate outside of human constructs? Or is it confined by those?

                      One also has to define what one understands by a "miracle".
                      I said nothing about an entity, the point in the OP was to show that Hume's argument was irrational.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        I said nothing about an entity, the point in the OP was to show that Hume's argument was irrational.
                        Point taken. So how do you define a miracle?
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Point taken. So how do you define a miracle?
                          A violation of known natural laws.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seer View Post

                            A violation of known natural laws.
                            So why would I believe someone if he told me that a miracle had occurred?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                              So why would I believe someone if he told me that a miracle had occurred?
                              Why wouldn't you? Especially if it was a trusted sober minded friend? In any case you would need a rational reason to object, what would that reason be?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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