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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Is time physical?

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    We know what causes an electric charge, not so with time. Though fundamental it doesn't seem to be physical. No actual physical properties we can point to.
    By the present evidence cause of time is intimately and cannot separated from the cause of matter and energy. By the scientific evidence the relationship between time, matter and energy is based on Methodological Naturalism resulting in our scientific knowledge of the physical nature of our existence, ie Natural Laws and natural processes.

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

    Entropy. Something is wound up that makes time move in one direction. So it's entropy that makes the film run.

    I think that is a good representation of their argument.
    But actual entropy requires motion. When an apple rots there are physical processes in motion. How does that happen in static time. Never mind the fact that on a particular time line the apple never rots...


    Going back to what I was saying earlier, I don't think they have a problem with everything being an illusion (do they?), as long as that illusion is empirically concrete, verifiable, and useful for other sciences and inquiries into the nature of reality. Yeah, it's an illusion of sorts, but quite stable.

    I'm still way more comfortable with A though.
    But it is all false in the end, we are not really thinking, the earth is not really revolving around the sun. The big bang didn't create the universe. The theory of evolution is moot. Physics don't apply in a static universe. That is a lot to give up.

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  • Machinist
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    But there is no actual film running, so we are back to a motionless universe. Nothing actually moves, including the chemicals that cause our thoughts. So our belief that we are presently thinking is also an illusion.
    Entropy. Something is wound up that makes time move in one direction. So it's entropy that makes the film run.

    I think that is a good representation of their argument.

    So our belief that we are presently thinking is also an illusion.
    Going back to what I was saying earlier, I don't think they have a problem with everything being an illusion (do they?), as long as that illusion is empirically concrete, verifiable, and useful for other sciences and inquiries into the nature of reality. Yeah, it's an illusion of sorts, but quite stable.

    I'm still way more comfortable with A though.

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

    The film strip is the B theorist goto analogy. That's the way it works. Like a film strip. The flow is the perceived flow. I don't think they have a problem with it being an illusion.
    But there is no actual film running, so we are back to a motionless universe. Nothing actually moves, including the chemicals that cause our thoughts. So our belief that we are presently thinking is also an illusion.

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  • Machinist
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    What is running the film in B theory? And you can only actually run that film if A theory is correct - any series of events in motion would require flow.
    The film strip is the B theorist goto analogy. That's the way it works. Like a film strip. The flow is the perceived flow. I don't think they have a problem with it being an illusion.

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

    If B is true, then the motion we experience would be a reality of sorts. The flow is produced by running the film that contains all these static frames. I wonder if B theorists accept the term "illusion" here? Because it is a central fact, within that worldview of time, that motion is produced by the succession of these frames or slices. I wonder what they call it, if not an illusion?
    What is running the film in B theory? And you can only actually run that film if A theory is correct - any series of events in motion would require flow.

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  • Machinist
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post




    Psalm 139:16 ESV
    Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.


    That's a powerful verse there. I've never read that.



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  • Machinist
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    OK, back to my recent point. How is motion (whether in the thought process or physical acts) possible in a universe where time is static? It seems to me that motion requires a flow of time.
    If B is true, then the motion we experience would be a reality of sorts. The flow is produced by running the film that contains all these static frames. I wonder if B theorists accept the term "illusion" here? Because it is a central fact, within that worldview of time, that motion is produced by the succession of these frames or slices. I wonder what they call it, if not an illusion?

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    OK, back to my recent point. How is motion (whether in the thought process or physical acts) possible in a universe where time is static? It seems to me that motion requires a flow of time.

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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by Machinist View Post
    Seer mentioned before you even became self aware...before we are even conceived, everything is already written in the block universe.

    That makes it a little questionable now. A person can not exist because they haven't been born yet, nor will they for thousands of years, and in the same block, they have been dead for thousands of years.

    It's troubling to think that people who have not even been born, actually have already made all the decisions they will ever make and it's all recorded in the future block.
    Jeremiah 1:5 ESV
    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”


    Psalm 139:16 ESV
    Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

    Ephesians 1:4 ESV
    Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

    Galatians 1:15 ESV
    But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,

    Leave a comment:


  • Machinist
    replied
    Seer mentioned before you even became self aware...before we are even conceived, everything is already written in the block universe.

    That makes it a little questionable now. A person can not exist because they haven't been born yet, nor will they for thousands of years, and in the same block, they have been dead for thousands of years.

    It's troubling to think that people who have not even been born, actually have already made all the decisions they will ever make and it's all recorded in the future block.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    I don't buy it. Even before you became self-aware every act and thought was written, frozen in static time. There is no ability to do 'otherwise' which is the crux of freedom. When I go back and watch myself eat that burrito the future was open, I could have chosen 'otherwise' - I have no power to chose 'otherwise' Block theory. The future is not open.
    if it is a growing block universe it is. But once a decision has been made free or not, you can't change it. That's the same no matter what theory you want to use. Going back in time and watching yourself eat breakfast would be no different in the regular block universe or a growing block universe. Your decision would already be "written" - heck it would be no different than you watching a home movie and complaining that what you did in the movie can't be changed therefore you had no free will.

    If your "written" choices are a result of your free will, then even if you can't change them, it doesn't matter. They were YOUR free will decisions. You can't change any decision after you make it. That's the nature of the universe. No do-overs. So all decisions and choices are final in time. If you could go back in time and watch Lincoln be assassinated, the fact that Booth can't do anything else but shoot Lincoln doesn't matter because it was his own free will decision to do it. It is what he chose to do. You knowing it doesn't matter.

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    I don't know. I do believe that my future decisions will be my free will decisions even if I can't change them.

    Look, I tried to explain it to you before:

    You know what you ate for breakfast yesterday. Let's say it was your free will decision to eat a breakfast burrito. You know that and since it is in the past you can't change it. Now imagine you could go back in time and watch yourself make that decision. You would see yourself decide to eat a breakfast burrito. You will not choose to eat anything else. Because you remember yourself eating that breakfast burrito. It can't be changed, and yet it is a free will decision. IF you had chosen something else, say Cheerios, then that is what you would remember eating and what you would see yourself choosing if you could go back in time and see it.

    Just extend that into the future. Let's say that you in the future on Friday, know that tomorrow morning you will choose to eat a muffin for breakfast. That means tomorrow you will freely choose to eat a muffin for breakfast. If you were going to eat something else, that is what the Seer on Friday would know. So no matter what free will decision you make tomorrow, your future self of Friday remembers that, and that is what you will do tomorrow. Freely.
    I don't buy it. Even before you became self-aware every act and thought was written, frozen in static time. There is no ability to do 'otherwise' which is the crux of freedom. When I go back and watch myself eat that burrito the future was open, I could have chosen 'otherwise' - I have no power to chose 'otherwise' Block theory. The future is not open.

    Leave a comment:


  • Machinist
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    sorry I thought you were Seer. doh.
    You had your coffee yet?

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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

    I didn't say I had a problem with it.
    sorry I thought you were Seer. doh.

    Leave a comment:

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