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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Is time physical?

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    Sparko I never said time did not exist, I said the flow of time does not exist. It is the flow of time that is an illusion in B theory.
    You also have said that time itself is an illusion.

    Originally posted by seer View Post

    Doesn't Einstein say that time is an illusion? And if time is physical what is it made of?
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    It does with block theory.

    Time Is An Illusion – Past, Present & Future Exist Simultaneously, According To The Block Universe Theory

    According to many physicists, time does not occur the way that we imagine it does. They believe the time is merely an illusion, and that the past, present, and future are all still occurring in different locations in space time.

    In an article written by Dr. Kristie Miller in ABC Science, she goes in-depth about the theory. According to her, all of the moments that have ever existed and will ever exist are currently running on a continuum that makes them relative to each other within three spatial dimensions and a single time dimension.

    The block theory is also associated with the theory of Eternalism, which shows that the past, present, and future all co-exist. Presentism, on the other hand, believes only the present moment exists. But without time being an issue, it would be impossible for that to be true.


    https://empathsandintroverts.com/tim...iverse-theory/

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

      You also have said that time itself is an illusion.
      Yes, that first quote was a question, the second was a linked reference:

      Time Is An Illusion – Past, Present & Future Exist Simultaneously, According To The Block Universe Theory

      According to many physicists, time does not occur the way that we imagine it does. They believe the time is merely an illusion, and that the past, present, and future are all still occurring in different locations in space time.
      When it says that time is an illusion it is obviously referring to flow. And Sparko I have have make the distinction a number of times in this thread between the flow of time and static time. You KNOW that...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        Yes, that first quote was a question, the second was a linked reference:



        When it says that time is an illusion it is obviously referring to flow. And Sparko I have have make the distinction a number of times in this thread between the flow of time and static time. You KNOW that...
        It's your source and you have used it a few times now and you keep claiming there is no past present or future in B-theory. And you keep claiming things like everything exists "at the same time" - I have spent a large portion of time in this thread correcting your misconceptions about B-theory.


        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          It's your source and you have used it a few times now and you keep claiming there is no past present or future in B-theory. And you keep claiming things like everything exists "at the same time" - I have spent a large portion of time in this thread correcting your misconceptions about B-theory.
          No, past present and future all exist together in the Block universe. Baby me still exists, not in the past, but exists as we speak in the Block universe. If we were outside of the universe we would see them all at the same time, just as we would see every frame of your film at the same moment, if it was stretched out before us...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post

            No, past present and future all exist together in the Block universe. Baby me still exists, not in the past, but exists as we speak in the Block universe. If we were outside of the universe we would see them all at the same time, just as we would see every frame of your film at the same moment, if it was stretched out before us...
            Baby seer exists in the past as far as we are concerned at this time. The past exists. The future exists, but NOT AT THE SAME TIME. Because Time itself exists as a continuum from zero (big bang) to whatever the end is. Yes if you were a 4 dimensional being looking at the universe from outside somehow you would see all of time. Just like if you were a bird flying over a highway you could see all of the highway from beginning to end. But the highway still has actual locations and objects along the way from the beginning to the end.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              Baby seer exists in the past as far as we are concerned at this time. The past exists.
              But we are wrong, there really is no past in the Block universe, remember time is static.


              The future exists, but NOT AT THE SAME TIME. Because Time itself exists as a continuum from zero (big bang) to whatever the end is. Yes if you were a 4 dimensional being looking at the universe from outside somehow you would see all of time. Just like if you were a bird flying over a highway you could see all of the highway from beginning to end. But the highway still has actual locations and objects along the way from the beginning to the end.
              They have different locations, but not different times. Again, there is no 1953 when baby seer was born, those distinctions are based on our illusion of time. There may be different locations on the time line, but time does not change, it is static. And there is no "beginning" - baby seer did not begin to exist, baby seer always existed in the Block universe.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                I understand. Rationality, by the most irreducible definition possible, necessarily requires a logically reducible real-ness as a starting point. Even though B might work in theory, it can only be reduced to something illusory. I would like to see how Sparko and Stoic would answer this. Do you call it illusion? If not, then what do you call the perceived motion that is created by the succession of these time slices?
                The equations of motion work exactly the same in B theory as in A theory. What changes is the interpretation of those equations.

                It's kind of like one of those drawings where you see one object, and then if you look at it long enough (or at a different time), you see a different object. And then you can switch back and forth between one view and the other, but you can't really say that one view is wrong and the other is correct. Similarly, you can think of time as being like A theory if that's convenient, or you can switch to B theory if you prefer. It turns out that a lot of physicists prefer the B theory view.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                  The equations of motion work exactly the same in B theory as in A theory. What changes is the interpretation of those equations.
                  How do they work 'exactly' the same when there is no motion in B theory?

                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    How do they work 'exactly' the same when there is no motion in B theory?
                    It's pretty obvious that there is motion, so I see two possibilities here:

                    1) B theory is obviously wrong, and lots of physicists are colossal idiots, or
                    2) There is motion in B theory, and seer's claim to the contrary is just wrong.

                    I suspect that you and I would lean in different directions as to which of the above is correct.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                      It's pretty obvious that there is motion, so I see two possibilities here:

                      1) B theory is obviously wrong, and lots of physicists are colossal idiots, or
                      2) There is motion in B theory, and seer's claim to the contrary is just wrong.

                      I suspect that you and I would lean in different directions as to which of the above is correct.
                      If there is motion Stoic, then the A theory of time kicks in, flow is related to motion. So I will ask you again - did the universe begin small then expand as we see it today? There is no temporal passage or 'becoming' (motion) in B theory.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        If there is motion Stoic, then the A theory of time kicks in, flow is related to motion. So I will ask you again - did the universe begin small then expand as we see it today? There is no temporal passage or 'becoming' (motion) in B theory.
                        I don't see a significant difference between "the universe began small and then expanded" and "the spatial extent of the universe is smaller at earlier times than at later times".

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                          I don't see a significant difference between "the universe began small and then expanded" and "the spatial extent of the universe is smaller at earlier times than at later times".
                          Because the first one created the kinetic energy necessary for universal motion, set everything in motion. The second one does no such thing. Again in static cosmos there is no motion. I just walked from my bed room to the kitchen. But I really did not move, I am still in my bed room, as well as the kitchen and every point along the way. And I have always been and always will be - in the Block universe. No actual movement, just different static, eternal locations.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Because the first one created the kinetic energy necessary for universal motion, set everything in motion. The second one does no such thing. Again in static cosmos there is no motion.
                            You can keep saying that forever (and I expect you will), but you will still be wrong.

                            The Block Universe has all the same laws of physics as other theories of time. If it didn't, physicists would reject it, rather than embrace it.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                              You can keep saying that forever (and I expect you will), but you will still be wrong.

                              The Block Universe has all the same laws of physics as other theories of time. If it didn't, physicists would reject it, rather than embrace it.
                              First, not all physicists do accept B theory. Second, you are clearly wrong. Most physicists, I suspect, would accept Big bang cosmology, that the universe started small then expanded to the size we see today. The very thing you and other B theorists would deny. The only way around that would be the growing block theory. Where A theory is reintroduced.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                First, not all physicists do accept B theory. Second, you are clearly wrong. Most physicists, I suspect, would accept Big bang cosmology, that the universe started small then expanded to the size we see today. The very thing you and other B theorists would deny. The only way around that would be the growing block theory. Where A theory is reintroduced.
                                Find me one physicist who accepts B theory and thinks that it means there was no Big Bang.

                                (And BTW, I've never claimed to be a B theorist.)

                                Comment

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