Is time physical?

[Sparko]

Distance is not time, the point is there are no differing times when time is static. You could say that there are different locations (which has other problems) but time could never be a metric because it never changes.

bef4ef152bb3fee194b2c2d2d8cdaefd.jpg

[seer]

I'll respond that differing time coordinates are just different distances along the time axis from some arbitrary origin.

Distance is not time, the point is there are no differing times when time is static. You could say that there are different locations (which has other problems) but time could never be a metric because it never changes.

[Sparko]

The term Dunning-Kruger comes to mind. You can't really break through to someone who thinks he knows more about it than you do.

But that's not really why I'm posting. I wanted to remind you of this:


You just can't help yourself, can you?


(I know the feeling.)

Yeah he keeps sucking me back in. I feel like CP when he says he is leaving.

[Sparko]

No there isn't! All times coexist - there is no actual past or future. This is based on our illusion.




Good grief! Different "time periods" don't exist. So you don't get to use A theory language. Let me quote you:



All at the same time! How can you have different time coordinates if looking from the outside it all happens as the same time, at once?

Seer, you have no idea what you are talking about. I will try one more time then I am done.

Time exists in the block universe. All times exist. From "outside" you would indeed see all times as existing at once, just like from outside you would see the entire film strip or gif frames. Yet that doesn't mean that there aren't different time periods within the whole of time. Just like the frames exist within the film strip. Each frame is different from another and represent a different time. One frame could be 1961, another frame could be 2022. You are confusing the dimension of time with different periods of time within that dimension.

If the time dimension were a line, each time coordinate or period would be a point along that line. You from the outside could see all of the line and all of the points but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

.....1961....1962................2022.......2025.. ......3000

You can see the whole line at once. but each . is a different moment in time.

Or maybe since you keep resorting to "there are no discrete moments in time" think of an audio recording tape. It has no discrete "frames" and the entire recording tape is "time" and each moment is some arbitrary location along that tape.


timedomain.png

[Machinist]

It's not really an ad hominem, since the Dunning-Kruger effect can happen to anyone.

And to show I'm no better than Sparko, I'll respond that differing time coordinates are just different distances along the time axis from some arbitrary origin.

Time as a spatial dimension makes sense. It's like we're moving through time sure, but this time is actually another spatial dimension.

[Stoic]

I thought you were better than to use an ad hominem Stoic, especially since neither of you can defend differing time coordinates without reverting to A theory tenses (which don't actually exist).

It's not really an ad hominem, since the Dunning-Kruger effect can happen to anyone.

And to show I'm no better than Sparko, I'll respond that differing time coordinates are just different distances along the time axis from some arbitrary origin.

[seer]

The term Dunning-Kruger comes to mind. You can't really break through to someone who thinks he knows more about it than you do.

I thought you were better than to use an ad hominem Stoic, especially since neither of you can defend differing time coordinates without reverting to A theory tenses (which don't actually exist).

[Stoic]

Yes there is a 1961 and a 2020 in the block universe Seer. That's the whole point of the B-theory. In A-theory 1961 doesn't exist and neither does 2024, only "now" exists. In B-theory they both (and all time periods) do. And using tenses is perfectly normal when speaking of the future or past in B-theory, because it compares other time periods to the present time you are speaking from.

The term Dunning-Kruger comes to mind. You can't really break through to someone who thinks he knows more about it than you do.

But that's not really why I'm posting. I wanted to remind you of this:

So I guess I am done here. When you can show you actually understand B-theory, then maybe we can have an actual discussion. Until then it is pointless.

You just can't help yourself, can you?


(I know the feeling.)

[seer]

Yes there is a 1961 and a 2020 in the block universe Seer.

No there isn't! All times coexist - there is no actual past or future. This is based on our illusion.

That's the whole point of the B-theory. In A-theory 1961 doesn't exist and neither does 2024, only "now" exists. In B-theory they both (and all time periods) do. And using tenses is perfectly normal when speaking of the future or past in B-theory, because it compares other time periods to the present time you are speaking from.

Good grief! Different "time periods" don't exist. So you don't get to use A theory language. Let me quote you:

The GIF file is the block universe complete. Frame 1 is the big bang. Frame 4 is now. The circle exists in the gif both as a dot and a large circle at the same "time" if you were looking at the gif file in an image editor where you could see all of the frames at once.

That is how the universe can be both golf ball sized and huge at the same "time" just like this gif can be both a dot and a circle at the same "time"

All at the same time! How can you have different time coordinates if looking from the outside it all happens as the same time, at once?

[Sparko]

You did it again, there is no 1961 or 2020 in static time! Again you are using A theory, you are using tenses, to argue for differing time coordinates. If there are different physical locations on the film there are no differing times. Frames appear in one tenseless perspective. There are not different times in B Theory. What don't you get?

Yes there is a 1961 and a 2020 in the block universe Seer. That's the whole point of the B-theory. In A-theory 1961 doesn't exist and neither does 2024, only "now" exists. In B-theory they both (and all time periods) do. And using tenses is perfectly normal when speaking of the future or past in B-theory, because it compares other time periods to the present time you are speaking from.

[seer]

Because they are different frames, seer. Just like 1961 is a different time period than 2020. They are different locations along the time dimension just like two frames are different locations along the film. I have tried various ways of explaining it to you, film analogies, ruler analogies, I have even given you a graphic of the Block Universe showing the Big Bang till now. You still don't get it. That's not my fault, it is yours.

You did it again, there is no 1961 or 2020 in static time! Again you are using A theory, you are using tenses, to argue for differing time coordinates. If there are different physical locations on the film there are no differing times. Frames appear in one tenseless perspective. There are not different times in B Theory. What don't you get?

[Sparko]

How is frame one a different TIME coordinate than frame one hundred? How exactly are they different in TIME? Can you explain this WITHOUT using A Theory tenses?

Because they are different frames, seer. Just like 1961 is a different time period than 2020. They are different locations along the time dimension just like two frames are different locations along the film. I have tried various ways of explaining it to you, film analogies, ruler analogies, I have even given you a graphic of the Block Universe showing the Big Bang till now. You still don't get it. That's not my fault, it is yours.

[seer]

Each frame would be a different coordinate. Each frame is different from the others. The time dimension would be the whole film strip ("static" time) and each frame is a different time coordinate.

How is frame one a different TIME coordinate than frame one hundred? How exactly are they different in TIME? Can you explain this WITHOUT using A Theory tenses?

[Sparko]

Of course I understand it, that is why you can't refute me. You speak of time coordinates, but that is nonsense if time is static. Look at your the frames of your movie analogy. They all coexist, so what are the time coordinates? If you say that it begins with frame one then two then three and so forth. You are using the language of A Theory. You can not even make the argument without using tenses. But time is tenseless in B Theory.

Each frame would be a different coordinate. Each frame is different from the others. The time dimension would be the whole film strip ("static" time) and each frame is a different time coordinate. What exists in frame 1 might not exist in frame 30000. Just like in my gif file, the dot exists in frame 1, but not in frames 2-4.

How many ways can I explain it to you and you still don't get it. No, you don't understand the B-theory.

[seer]

You don't even understand B-theory, much less the evidence for it. You've shown that throughout this thread. The first thing you need to do in order to refute a theory is understand it correctly. You don't. B-theory might in fact not be true. But you sure haven't shown that nor even come close. All you have done is waste my time with nonsense objections and refusing to grasp anything I have said. The B-theory you seem to have stuck in your noggin isn't the actual B-theory. It's some Seer-imagined mockery of it.

So I guess I am done here. When you can show you actually understand B-theory, then maybe we can have an actual discussion. Until then it is pointless.

Of course I understand it, that is why you can't refute me. You speak of time coordinates, but that is nonsense if time is static. Look at your the frames of your movie analogy. They all coexist, so what are the time coordinates? If you say that it begins with frame one then two then three and so forth. You are using the language of A Theory. You can not even make the argument without using tenses. But time is tenseless in B Theory.