Is time physical?

[Machinist]

Right and everything I said would be correct.So you give up Big bang cosmology and the theory of evolution?

Yeah, because in each frame, everything is static. But if you flip these static images together, you get a movie.

[Machinist]

Those events would be simultaneous from the perspective of the outside observer, but not simultaneous within the Block Universe.

Agreed.

So are you saying that the perspective from outside the Block Universe, looking at the Block Universe, isn't the ultimate reality? Is that not a reality also where things are what they are, and cannot be what they are not at the same place and at the same time? I guess i'm imagining that from the perspective of the outside looking in, that it should necessarily be like the 3D perspective i'm formatted to. I don't know, but I may or may not be 4D illiterate. If I am, then I don't know what i'm talking about, and if i'm hitting on something, then it's by throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. Because when I think of this 4D vantage point, looking at a 3D universe, the entire picture in my mind is still 3D. I'm not sure i'm lining up the correct elements of the equation here. It's necessary I think to align the correct perceiver at the correct vantage point, with consideration of the dimension he is in. You can't take a perceptive faculty that is formatted to a 3D world and execute it in a higher dimension. Maybe it would automatically adjust, perhaps consciousness just has the feature to auto adjust to it's dimension. If it didn't, that could actually be devastating, terrifying even. I can't imagine being a 4D being, probably because i'm 4D illiterate, but I can somewhat imagine being a 2D being. Imagine waking up one day and you're a stick figure? Then again, would you even know it? because you wouldn't have the advantage of having a 3D formatted consciousness.

[seer]

So the Ultimately Reality is that you really did move from one room to another; it's just that when you moved to the new location, you were already there at that precise location that you just moved to, from the same location that you just came from and are still at for eternity.

Actually no, the ultimate reality is that there is no movement, and never was...

[seer]

Those events would be simultaneous from the perspective of the outside observer...

Right and everything I said would be correct.So you give up Big bang cosmology and the theory of evolution?

[Stoic]

The outside observer might see you as a baby and as an adult at different places, but these different places, and the events that take place in these places are precisely simultaneous.

Those events would be simultaneous from the perspective of the outside observer, but not simultaneous within the Block Universe.

[Machinist]

3. There can be no movement or change. I really did not just move from one room to another. I have always been in both positions, and all positions in between.

From the perspective of someone outside the block, this would be true. Every place you have ever been, and every place you will ever be, you are in those places all at once, and for eternity...or at least for the duration of the block's existence. So the Ultimately Reality is that you really did move from one room to another; it's just that when you moved to the new location, you were already there at that precise location that you just moved to, from the same location that you just came from and are still at for eternity. The paradox is between the native reality of this universe and Ultimate Reality. The outside observer might see you as a baby and as an adult at different places, but these different places, and the events that take place in these places are precisely simultaneous.

[seer]

It's static from the point of view of someone outside the Block Universe. They would see times closer to the big bang and times farther from the big bang, all at once. They would just see them as located at different places in the Block Universe.

If this is correct:

1.Big bang cosmology is false. The universe did not start small then expand.

2. The universe, against all the best science, is not expanding as we speak.

3. There can be no movement or change. I really did not just move from one room to another. I have always been in both positions, and all positions in between.

4. The theory of evolution is false. There was not a gradual change to species over time.

5. Anymore than I evolved from a child to an adult.

[Stoic]

When you say I still exist as a baby, how is that time different to this time?

It's closer to the big bang.

Can that be explained without using the illusion of flow?

Absolutely.

Of course, we're so used to thinking of time as flowing that it's easy to slip up and use the language of flow. But that's just habit, not necessity.

Remember in the Block universe there is no earlier or later time. All exists at one static moment, and always has.

It's static from the point of view of someone outside the Block Universe. They would see times closer to the big bang and times farther from the big bang, all at once. They would just see them as located at different places in the Block Universe.

Right, so all events exist at one moment. With no variation in time. And how do you get to increasing time coordinates when nothing actually increased?

You can locate milestones on a freeway in order of increasing distance from one end of the freeway, even if nothing is actually moving.

Similarly, you can locate events in the Block Universe in order of increasing distance from the big bang, even if time is not actually flowing.

[Sparko]

And that is the point. You are claiming that there are different areas in the one Block universe. Frame one is not one section of the universe, and frame three another section of the universe. Frame one is the whole universe, frame three would be the whole universe too. They are not parts of a bigger universe.

Not the whole universe, the whole universe at that TIME coordinate. In my chart the "whole" universe is the vertical axis. at each point on the time axis, the vertical axis represents the whole universe at that time. But in a block universe the actual whole universe would be the entire universe at all time coordinates. In my example the whole chart. If you look at my chart, at time 0 there are no suns in the entire universe (vertical axis). At time 1 there is one sun (the first blue line) at time 2, the first sun no longer exists in the "whole universe) but another sun does. and so on.

time.jpg

[seer]

They would see all suns at once just like I show in my graph. In certain areas of the block universe they would see some suns existing and in other parts of the block universe those suns would not exist. Just like in my graph.

And that is the point. You are claiming that there are different areas in the one Block universe. Frame one is not one section of the universe, and frame three another section of the universe. Frame one is the whole universe, frame three would be the whole universe too. They are not parts of a bigger universe.

[Sparko]

A few points:

You are using an arrow for time, which is denied in Block theory.

Wrong. I am using time as a spacial dimension which has locations. Big bang = 0 2022= 4. Time is no different than a spacial dimension to someone looking from outside. They would see 4 spacial dimensions not just the 3 we see. But since I am limited to 2 dimensions in a graph, I am only showing one spacial dimension and one time dimension.

The sun does not begin to exist, it has always existed, and has always been dead. There is in reality no zero to 4 billion. There is just a static 'now' if you will.

Looking from outside, they would see the sun as a 4 dimensional object, with 3 spacial dimensions that are limited, and one time dimension which is also limited in scope. Therefore they would see the sun existing at a specific location in the block universe, extending only so far in both spacial and the time dimension. In 2 dimensional graph it appears to be a line. This is your biggest error in understanding the block universe. I have tried to explain this to you over and over as has stoic.

A more correct view would be looking at a large circle from outside - where one sees all suns as both dead and alive at the moment you view it.

They would see all suns at once just like I show in my graph. In certain areas of the block universe they would see some suns existing and in other parts of the block universe those suns would not exist. Just like in my graph.

[seer]

Different time locations. Same as in the film. We have been over this.

I made a chart. The height is location in space (I can only show one space dimension here) the width is time, from zero = big bang to say 4 billion years at the right.

The blue bars are objects in the universe, you can imagine they are suns. Where the bar starts is where the sun begins to exist, where the bar ends, is where the sun stops existing in the universe. Or you can imagine they are lives. Left end is when you were born, right end is where you die. This is what someone outside the universe would see. They would see an objects duration as a line of time. This is how something can both exist and not exist in the same universe. I know you sucked me in again, but at least try to understand. If you don't I give up.


time.jpg

A few points:

You are using an arrow for time, which is denied in Block theory.

The sun does not begin to exist, it has always existed, and has always been dead. There is in reality no zero to 4 billion. There is just a static 'now' if you will.

A more correct view would be looking at a large circle from outside - where one sees all suns as both dead and alive at the moment you view it.

In other words because there isn't an arrow of time, all your blue bars would be together, inter mixed. There is no linear time to separate them, that would require A theory.

In one frame you have all suns burning, in another frame for have all suns dead. But in reality there is only one frame because there is only one universe.

[Sparko]

No the same. How can the whole universe be dead and not dead?

Different time locations. Same as in the film. We have been over this.

I made a chart. The height is location in space (I can only show one space dimension here) the width is time, from zero = big bang to say 4 billion years at the right.

The blue bars are objects in the universe, you can imagine they are suns. Where the bar starts is where the sun begins to exist, where the bar ends, is where the sun stops existing in the universe. Or you can imagine they are lives. Left end is when you were born, right end is where you die. This is what someone outside the universe would see. They would see an objects duration as a line of time. This is how something can both exist and not exist in the same universe. I know you sucked me in again, but at least try to understand. If you don't I give up.


time.jpg

[seer]

Somewhere in the same film the Titanic is both starting out on it's journey and at the bottom of the ocean. So what?

No the same. How can the whole universe be dead and not dead?

[Sparko]

But our view from the inside is false. Again, our sun never experiences entropy and does experience entropy. Somewhere in our universe the sun is both dead and alive. Somewhere in the SAME universe all suns are burning and all suns are dead. Strange, that...

Somewhere in the same film the Titanic is both starting out on it's journey and at the bottom of the ocean. So what?