Announcement

Collapse

Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Is time physical?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    That makes no sense, that measurement would be an illusion if time does not flow. The measurement would require an actual past present and future, but if time is static those categories don't exist.
    You can measure the distance between two locations even if space does not flow.

    You can measure the duration between two events even if time does not flow.


    Err no, an electrical charge would exist even if there were no rational minds in the universe. How could time exist without rational minds?
    Time could exist without rational minds the same way space could exist without rational minds.

    IOW, ever since relativity, just about everything you can say about space, you can also say about time.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Stoic View Post
      You can measure the distance between two locations even if space does not flow.
      Physical distance is not time.

      You can measure the duration between two events even if time does not flow.
      Again that makes no sense. How can there be duration if there is no flow? Duration measures flow, if you think otherwise what is duration?


      Time could exist without rational minds the same way space could exist without rational minds.

      IOW, ever since relativity, just about everything you can say about space, you can also say about time.
      In what sense does time exist with out rational minds? Space or distance would still exist. That is a physical quality.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Physical distance is not time.
        According to current science, space and time are merely two aspects of space-time.
        https://www.livescience.com/space-time.html

        Again that makes no sense. How can there be duration if there is no flow? Duration measures flow, if you think otherwise what is duration?
        If time is just another dimension, then duration is a measurement along that dimension.

        In what sense does time exist with out rational minds?
        Time can exist without rational minds in the same sense that space can exist without rational minds.

        Space or distance would still exist. That is a physical quality.
        Exactly. And exactly the same as time. If you weren't so dead set on thinking of time as something completely different, you would see that.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post
          According to current science, space and time are merely two aspects of space-time.
          https://www.livescience.com/space-time.html
          But time is not space, they are two different things. That is why we use different words. Just because we link them does not change that fact.


          If time is just another dimension, then duration is a measurement along that dimension.
          What does that mean? If the flow of time is an illusion then there is no duration to measure because duration requires flow.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post

            But time is not space, they are two different things. That is why we use different words. Just because we link them does not change that fact.
            Einstein said that time is a 4th dimension of spacetime. You have length, width, height, and time. Using those 4 coordinates you can place any object in the universe by location and time.

            Like a plane crashed at x,y,z, at t.



            What does that mean? If the flow of time is an illusion then there is no duration to measure because duration requires flow.
            So you think time doesn't exist without rational minds? Then how did anything happen before men came along? Like the dinosaurs existing for millions of years? Or stars being created and destroyed?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              So you think time doesn't exist without rational minds? Then how did anything happen before men came along? Like the dinosaurs existing for millions of years? Or stars being created and destroyed?
              Einstein said that the flow of time was an illusion. If that is correct there can be no duration, the past present and future exist simultaneously.


              Time is NOT real: Physicists show everything happens at the same time

              TIME is not real - it is a human construct to help us differentiate between now and our perception of the past, an equally astonishing and baffling theory states.


              Inevitably, some have concluded that time is simply a human construct.

              They argue that there is a ‘block universe where time and space are connected, otherwise known as spacetime.

              The theory, which is backed up by Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity, states space and time are part of a four-dimensional structure where everything thing that has happened has its own coordinates in spacetime.

              This would allow everything to be ‘real’ in the sense that the past, and even the future, are still there in spacetime – making everything equally important as the present.

              https://www.express.co.uk/news/scien...-time-einstein

              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seer View Post

                Einstein said that the flow of time was an illusion. If that is correct there can be no duration, the past present and future exist simultaneously.
                That's not what I asked. You said time didn't exist without a rational mind. And your quoted article makes no sense. Obviously written by a layman with zero knowledge of the subject.

                "Physicists show everything happens at the same time" - That's clearly a nonsense statement. Even in a block universe everything doesn't happen at the same time. Time is the very thing that stops everything from happening at once. Just like the 3 dimensions of space stops everything from existing in the same place.






                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  That's not what I asked. You said time didn't exist without a rational mind. And your quoted article makes no sense. Obviously written by a layman with zero knowledge of the subject.

                  "Physicists show everything happens at the same time" - That's clearly a nonsense statement. Even in a block universe everything doesn't happen at the same time. Time is the very thing that stops everything from happening at once. Just like the 3 dimensions of space stops everything from existing in the same place.
                  Massachusetts Institute of Technology physicist Max Tegmark, told space.com: "We can portray our reality as either a three-dimensional place where stuff happens over time, or as a four-dimensional place where nothing happens [‘block universe’] — and if it really is the second picture, then change really is an illusion, because there's nothing that's changing; it's all just there — past, present, future.

                  So according to Max Tegmark time or change would be an illusion in a block universe.

                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post

                    Massachusetts Institute of Technology physicist Max Tegmark, told space.com: "We can portray our reality as either a three-dimensional place where stuff happens over time, or as a four-dimensional place where nothing happens [‘block universe’] — and if it really is the second picture, then change really is an illusion, because there's nothing that's changing; it's all just there — past, present, future.

                    So according to Max Tegmark time or change would be an illusion in a block universe.
                    Change isn't the same thing as time. Time exists no matter what view you take on the universe. You can think of the block universe as a strip of film. The film strip's length is time and each frame is a different coordinate location in time. So frame 1 is time 1, Frame 2 is time 2, etc. So even if you are not viewing the film through the projector and seeing motion, each frame (time) still exists. The film is not an illusion, but motion is an illusion. You are confusing Time with the subjective experience of duration. two different things.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                      Change isn't the same thing as time. Time exists no matter what view you take on the universe. You can think of the block universe as a strip of film. The film strip's length is time and each frame is a different coordinate location in time. So frame 1 is time 1, Frame 2 is time 2, etc. So even if you are not viewing the film through the projector and seeing motion, each frame (time) still exists. The film is not an illusion, but motion is an illusion. You are confusing Time with the subjective experience of duration. two different things.
                      With the film there is no past present or future. No duration, it all exists at one time. Our subject view of there being a past present or future is an illusion.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        With the film there is no past present or future. No duration, it all exists at one time. Our subject view of there being a past present or future is an illusion.
                        Not each frame exists as it's own time. I said the film's length was time, and each frame was one event in time at a specific location in time.

                        Past, present and future are merely relative reference terms we use to refer to different times. It changes. Right now we talk about tomorrow as "the future" but tomorrow we will talk about it as "the present" and today will be "the past"

                        On the film, the present would be whatever frame is being projected on the screen, the past would be the frames on the take up reel, and the future would be the frames on the feeder reel.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          With the film there is no past present or future. No duration, it all exists at one time. Our subject view of there being a past present or future is an illusion.
                          Here's another way to think about it:

                          When God looks at the universe, He sees the past, present, and future, all unchanging from His point of view. This is similar to you looking at the film, and seeing the beginning of the movie, the middle of the movie, and the end of the movie, all unchanging from your point of view. However, from the point of view of someone IN the universe, time progresses from the past, to the present, to the future, just as to someone watching the movie, the beginning, middle, and ending come in progression.

                          But even from God's POV, time still exists, and is not an illusion. Events within the universe still happen at particular times, just as events in the movie happen at particular frames. God is just not limited to experiencing the universe one moment at a time.

                          It's the flow of time, and not time itself, that is an illusion (if eternalism is the case).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            My instinct is to say that anything that is not made of physical matter is not physical. Time is not made of physical matter. If nothing physical existed in our universe then there would be no time, since it is a measurement of the physical but not physical itself.

                            That's the way it appears to me anyway.
                            "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                            "
                            Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                              Here's another way to think about it:

                              When God looks at the universe, He sees the past, present, and future, all unchanging from His point of view. This is similar to you looking at the film, and seeing the beginning of the movie, the middle of the movie, and the end of the movie, all unchanging from your point of view. However, from the point of view of someone IN the universe, time progresses from the past, to the present, to the future, just as to someone watching the movie, the beginning, middle, and ending come in progression.

                              But even from God's POV, time still exists, and is not an illusion. Events within the universe still happen at particular times, just as events in the movie happen at particular frames. God is just not limited to experiencing the universe one moment at a time.

                              It's the flow of time, and not time itself, that is an illusion (if eternalism is the case).
                              A very un-atheist POV.
                              "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                              "
                              Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                                A very un-atheist POV.
                                True. Seer and I generally don't see things the same way, so I figured presenting it from my own POV would be less likely to be helpful.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by mattbballman31, 09-24-2022, 04:21 PM
                                31 responses
                                96 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by seer, 09-21-2022, 12:55 PM
                                24 responses
                                165 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seer
                                by seer
                                 
                                Started by seer, 08-03-2022, 11:33 AM
                                570 responses
                                2,369 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Stoic
                                by Stoic
                                 
                                Working...
                                X