Is time physical?

[Sparko]

On B Theory - the universe was not created, it always existed as it is. Again, I will quote Craig:

William Lane Craig Naturalism: A Critical Analysis (200) pp 232-3

''The Elliott Argument'' welcomes proponents of both the ''A-theory of time'' and ''B-theory of time''. B-Theory of time, or ''static time'', falls under the definition of ''STE'' because even though tenseless, spacetime still exists and is eternal (without true beginning). "On a B-theory of time, the universe never truly comes into being at all. The whole four-dimensional space-time manifold just exists tenselessly. Although the space-time manifold is intrinsically temporal, in that one of its four dimensions is time, nonetheless it is extrinsically timeless, in that it does not exist in an embedding hyper-time but exists tenselessly, neither coming into nor going out of being. The four dimensional space-time manifold is this latter sense eternal."

The time in the universe is internal to itself. It has nothing to do with whatever eternity or metatime God exists in. Even in A-theory. There was nothing but God, then he created the angels, then he created the universe, complete with it's own internal space and time.

Again think of it like a reel of film. If the film's "time" is from the first frame to the last, it has nothing to do with the time that exists outside of the film in our world. When someone males a copy of the film, when he is done creating it, all of the the film exists at once and it's own internal time is all there from beginning to end. But someone has to create the film before it can exist in the first place.

[seer]

The time in the universe is internal to itself. It has nothing to do with whatever eternity or metatime God exists in. Even in A-theory. There was nothing but God, then he created the angels, then he created the universe, complete with it's own internal space and time.

Again think of it like a reel of film. If the film's "time" is from the first frame to the last, it has nothing to do with the time that exists outside of the film in our world. When someone males a copy of the film, when he is done creating it, all of the the film exists at once and it's own internal time is all there from beginning to end. But someone has to create the film before it can exist in the first place.

Like Craig, I'm just relating what some B theorists are suggesting. If the universe is really eternal then there is no need for a creation event.

[Stoic]

1. How does that work when it includes the entire universe?

https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...70#post1407370

In the block universe theory, the universe includes the golf ball sized universe at 13.7 billion years before the present, along with the universe we see today.

That golf ball sized universe didn't include all of space and time. It included all of space at a particular time.

2. What is a time coordinate, when time is static?

What is a map coordinate, when the map is static?

How does one distinguish between time coordinates?

One generally distinguishes between time coordinates by referencing the state of matter and energy in existence at that particular coordinate. (For example, midnight at a particular location on the earth's surface is determined by the relationship between the earth and the sun.)

[Machinist]

There is continuity in spatial coordinates, but that does not necessarily mean there is any flow from one point to another.

To say that two objects are located at different places just means they have different spatial coordinates. It doesn't mean there is any flow between the two objects.

To say that two events are located at different times just means they have different time coordinates. It doesn't mean there is any flow between the two events.

Is there flow between the spatial and time coordinates of the "frames" or "slices" of say, someone walking across a floor?

It dang sho feel like and look like flow.

[seer]

In the block universe theory, the universe includes the golf ball sized universe at 13.7 billion years before the present, along with the universe we see today.

That golf ball sized universe didn't include all of space and time. It included all of space at a particular time.

Yes and that particular time and size still exists. So the universe exists as we see it today and exists about the size of a golf ball. Both are true. That seems like a blatant contradiction to me.

What is a map coordinate, when the map is static?

OK, show me the map for the universe. We have no idea how to map it, or even if it is possible. Where for instance do you fine the baby me?

One generally distinguishes between time coordinates by referencing the state of matter and energy in existence at that particular coordinate. (For example, midnight at a particular location on the earth's surface is determined by the relationship between the earth and the sun.)

But if space and time are static how does one really distinguish differences. Especially with time, since our view of flow is an illusion and time stamps are arbitrary. I was born in 1953, but in a static universe 1953 does not exist. So time references don't seem to be useful. As far as space and matter they too are in reality frozen in place. I don't see how it would be possible to navigate such a condition.

[Sparko]

Like Craig, I'm just relating what some B theorists are suggesting. If the universe is really eternal then there is no need for a creation event.

from what I have read of your excerpt I believe Craig is talking about the internal time as I explained.

I will try to go through it piece by piece:

The B Theory of time, or ''static time'', falls under the definition of ''STE'' because even though tenseless, spacetime still exists and is eternal (without true beginning). "On a B-theory of time, the universe never truly comes into being at all.
Here is is talking about the internal time in the block universe. All of spacetime just exists from beginning to end all at once. Once God created the universe all of time and space in the universe just existed.


The whole four-dimensional space-time manifold just exists tenselessly.
What you have been saying, all of time exists at once, the block universe is complete from beginning to end.


Although the space-time manifold is intrinsically temporal, in that one of its four dimensions is time,
intrinsically (internally) - he is saying internally the universe experiences time because one of the dimensions is time.

nonetheless it is extrinsically timeless, in that it does not exist in an embedding hyper-time but exists tenselessly, neither coming into nor going out of being. The four dimensional space-time manifold is this latter sense eternal."
Here he is saying external to the universe it appears timeless because outside of time (where God lives) there is no time, so in that sense it is eternal.

But of course we have no idea if there is some sort of "time" that God exists in. But in either case, God created the universe. The same problem exists for the A-theory of time. If God lives in a timeless state of eternity then started the A-theory universe creating time, how can you say there was a "time" when the A-theory universe didn't exist? It would have eternally existed, right? But whether the B or A theory, the universes existence is dependent on God's creative force.

Think of it like this (another example Craig likes to use)

Imagine a stack of books on a table that has existed eternally. Even though their was never a TIME that the books were put on the table, the books are dependent on that table to hold them up.

[seer]

from what I have read of your excerpt I believe Craig is talking about the internal time as I explained.

I will try to go through it piece by piece:

The B Theory of time, or ''static time'', falls under the definition of ''STE'' because even though tenseless, spacetime still exists and is eternal (without true beginning). "On a B-theory of time, the universe never truly comes into being at all.
Here is is talking about the internal time in the block universe. All of spacetime just exists from beginning to end all at once. Once God created the universe all of time and space in the universe just existed.

Craig does say that the B Theory undermines the Kalam Argument.

[Sparko]

Craig does say that the B Theory undermines the Kalam Argument.

did you notice he said "the whole yardstick just comes into being at once"? That is what I was talking about. It is still CREATED. God created the whole universe at once, including all of time.

But I think Craig is wrong about one of his statements, that in the B-theory there is no cause and effect. Just because both the cause and effect both "exist" in the block universe doesn't mean that the effect is not dependent on the cause. If you could remove the cause, the effect would also be removed. similar to the books on the table example I used in my last post. If the books are dependent on the table beneath them, then removing the table would mean the books would no longer be stacked on the table, The table is the eternal cause of the books being stacked.

So if you have a cause and effect in a block universe, lets say shooting an arrow at a target, then the eternal cause is always the bow shooting the arrow. If you could remove the bow and the arrow would never be there to hit the target.

[Machinist]

did you notice he said "the whole yardstick just comes into being at once"? That is what I was talking about. It is still CREATED. God created the whole universe at once, including all of time.

But I think Craig is wrong about one of his statements, that in the B-theory there is no cause and effect. Just because both the cause and effect both "exist" in the block universe doesn't mean that the effect is not dependent on the cause. If you could remove the cause, the effect would also be removed. similar to the books on the table example I used in my last post. If the books are dependent on the table beneath them, then removing the table would mean the books would no longer be stacked on the table, The table is the eternal cause of the books being stacked.

So if you have a cause and effect in a block universe, lets say shooting an arrow at a target, then the eternal cause is always the bow shooting the arrow. If you could remove the bow and the arrow would never be there to hit the target.

If the universe is tenseless, then why couldn't the arrow hitting the target be the cause of the bow's string being pulled back?

If that is nonsensical, then in what sense is the universe tenseless?

[Sparko]

If the universe is tenseless, then why couldn't the arrow hitting the target be the cause of the bow's string being pulled back?

If that is nonsensical, then in what sense is the universe tenseless?

Because of entropy. It's one way.

[Stoic]

Yes and that particular time and size still exists.

When you say "exists", there is a strong implication that you mean "at the present time". But that is not entailed by the block universe theory.

So the universe exists as we see it today and exists about the size of a golf ball. Both are true. That seems like a blatant contradiction to me.

It's as much a contradiction as saying that a pyramid is narrow at the top and wide at the bottom. (How can it be narrow and wide at the same time? )

OK, show me the map for the universe. We have no idea how to map it, or even if it is possible.

It's not that difficult for most people to generalize from a small part of the universe to the universe as a whole. You seem to be an exception.

Where for instance do you fine the baby me?

The baby you is in the 1953 part of the universe.

But if space and time are static how does one really distinguish differences. Especially with time, since our view of flow is an illusion and time stamps are arbitrary. I was born in 1953, but in a static universe 1953 does not exist. So time references don't seem to be useful. As far as space and matter they too are in reality frozen in place. I don't see how it would be possible to navigate such a condition.

Space and time would only be frozen from the POV of someone outside of the universe. But even to that someone, time references would be necessary to specify some particular part of the universe.

[seer]

Because of entropy. It's one way.

But entropy means going from order to disorder. But that doesn't really happen in a block universe where all conditions are frozen in static time. I think entropy requires that time actually flows.

[seer]

When you say "exists", there is a strong implication that you mean "at the present time". But that is not entailed by the block universe theory.


It's as much a contradiction as saying that a pyramid is narrow at the top and wide at the bottom. (How can it be narrow and wide at the same time? )

No, the golf ball sized universe still exists, if B theory is correct. So the whole universe exists as we see it today, and as the initial small size. That too is frozen in static time. And your example does not make sense,you would have to say that the whole pyramid exist as one block and a hundred blocks. Or do you believe that the golf ball universe that once contained all space and time no longer exists?

[Stoic]

No, the golf ball sized universe still exists, if B theory is correct. So the whole universe exists as we see it today, and as the initial small size. That too is frozen in static time. And your example does not make sense,you would have to say that the whole pyramid exist as one block and a hundred blocks. Or do you believe that the golf ball universe that once contained all space and time no longer exists?

The "golf ball sized universe" is not the whole block universe. It's only a slice of it. The "whole universe" that exists today is also not the whole block universe, but rather a slice of it. Put all the slices together, from the big bang until heat death (assuming there isn't anything more before or after), and you have the whole block universe.

[seer]

The "golf ball sized universe" is not the whole block universe. It's only a slice of it. The "whole universe" that exists today is also not the whole block universe, but rather a slice of it. Put all the slices together, from the big bang until heat death (assuming there isn't anything more before or after), and you have the whole block universe.

What do you mean by exists as 'today?' As we see it today has always existed. And that initial size is not a slice, it is the whole of time and space. And that condition still exists, somewhere the whole of the universe still exists as the size of a golf ball. So...

1. The whole of the universe exists as the size of a golf ball.

2. The whole of the universe does not not exist as the size of a golf ball.