Is time physical?

[Sparko]

Sheesh, there is and can not be a difference in time if time is static. Do you still exist as a baby?

what do you mean by "still?" - Again you keep confusing time and space.

[seer]

This is where you are mistaken, they (the big bang and as we know it today) don't "exists side by side" they exist at different times. And "slices" was just an analogy. The point being there are different time coordinates just like there are different space coordinates. You can create a coordinate system to pin point the location of an object in space (like our GPS system does) and you can use time coordinates to pinpoint a location of an object in time. That object which as you say, exists as a complete 4 dimensional object, still has a three dimensional aspect that exists at time coordinates. So the 4 dimensional universe which contains the big bang and heat death, still has different 3 dimensional aspects that exist at various times. At time zero it exists as a 3 dimensional golf ball sized object. At time=heat death it exists as a 3D humongous spread out universe consisting of cooling atoms.

Does the big bang still exist? Yes or no, are you still a baby, yes or no? And again how can there be different TIMES if time is static? And how can you have different TIME coordinates if time is static?

[seer]

what do you mean by "still?" - Again you keep confusing time and space.

You know what I mean, just answer the question. Does baby Sparko exist somewhere in the universe?

[Sparko]

Does the big bang still exist? Yes or no, are you still a baby, yes or no? And again how can there be different TIMES if time is static?

Currently the big bang still exists as microwave background radiation.

And like Stoic said, space is static, yet you can have different locations coordinates in space, same with time. Just because it is "static" when viewed from outside doesn't mean there are not different locations within that time. The big bang is one location, we are at a different location along the time dimension. Why can't you seem to grasp that simple concept?

Space:

NY city -----------------------------------Chicago-------------------San Francisco

One static space with three different space locations that are not overlapping and are completely different places.

Time:

Big Bang-------------------------Today-------------------end of universe

One static time with three different time locations that are not overlapping and are completely different times.

[seer]

Currently the big bang still exists as microwave background radiation.

And like Stoic said, space is static, yet you can have different locations coordinates in space, same with time. Just because it is "static" when viewed from outside doesn't mean there are not different locations within that time. The big bang is one location, we are at a different location along the time dimension. Why can't you seem to grasp that simple concept?

Space:

NY city -----------------------------------Chicago-------------------San Francisco

One static space with three different space locations that are not overlapping and are completely different places.

Time:

Big Bang-------------------------Today-------------------end of universe

One static time with three different time locations that are not overlapping and are completely different times.

Goodness, you are still using the language of flow. The Big Bang (past), today (present) and the dead universe (future) - yet they all exist together, there are no separate 'times.' From outside they are all frozen in static time. As far as space the analogy does not work. NY (the big bang is the whole universe) Chicago (is the whole universe as we see it today) San Fran (is the whole universe in the future). Each state contains all of space. So all of space in the size of a golf ball, all of space is as we see it today. And BTW - Block theory says that the universe is eternal, no beginning or God is necessary.

Also, what do you mean, exactly, by different times where time is static? In other words how does one differentiate these different times?


William Lane Craig Naturalism: A Critical Analysis (200) pp 232-3

B-Theory of time, or ''static time'', falls under the definition of ''STE'' because even though tenseless, spacetime still exists and is eternal (without true beginning). "On a B-theory of time, the universe never truly comes into being at all. The whole four-dimensional space-time manifold just exists tenselessly. Although the space-time manifold is intrinsically temporal, in that one of its four dimensions is time, nonetheless it is extrinsically timeless, in that it does not exist in an embedding hyper-time but exists tenselessly, neither coming into nor going out of being. The four dimensional space-time manifold is this latter sense eternal."

[Sparko]

Goodness, you are still using the language of flow. The Big Bang (past), today (present) and the dead universe (future) - yet they all exist together, there are no separate 'times.' From outside they are all frozen in static time. As far as space the analogy does not work. NY (the big bang is the whole universe) Chicago (is the whole universe as we see it today) San Fran (is the whole universe in the future). Each state contains all of space. So all of space in the size of a golf ball, all of space is as we see it today. And BTW - Block theory says that the universe is eternal, no beginning or God is necessary.

Also, what do you mean, exactly, by different times where time is static? In other words how does one differentiate these different times?


William Lane Craig Naturalism: A Critical Analysis (200) pp 232-3

B-Theory of time, or ''static time'', falls under the definition of ''STE'' because even though tenseless, spacetime still exists and is eternal (without true beginning). "On a B-theory of time, the universe never truly comes into being at all. The whole four-dimensional space-time manifold just exists tenselessly. Although the space-time manifold is intrinsically temporal, in that one of its four dimensions is time, nonetheless it is extrinsically timeless, in that it does not exist in an embedding hyper-time but exists tenselessly, neither coming into nor going out of being. The four dimensional space-time manifold is this latter sense eternal."

This is why I can't discuss this with you. You either can't grasp the concept or are pretending not to.

All of space still has different locations in space right? hence the different cities in my example. They are in different spacial locations.

All of time still has different locations in time. like the big bang and today. they are in different temporal locations. Just like a single line has different points along that line. Those points are still "the line" but different locations along that line. 1960 is a different temporal location in time than 1980 or 2022. Yet it is all one time dimension.

[seer]

This is why I can't discuss this with you. You either can't grasp the concept or are pretending not to.

All of space still has different locations in space right? hence the different cities in my example. They are in different spacial locations.

All of time still has different locations in time. like the big bang and today. they are in different temporal locations. Just like a single line has different points along that line. Those points are still "the line" but different locations along that line. 1960 is a different temporal location in time than 1980 or 2022. Yet it is all one time dimension.

Sparko, I need you to follow me here. If B theory is correct the Big Bang does not simple exist as background radiation it exists as it was. So at one point the golf ball sized universe contained all space and time. That still exists. But the universe we see today also contains all space and time. You can't claim that the golf sized universe still lurks in some corner of the universe or at some different coordinate because it is the whole of space and time. So the whole of space and time exists as the size of a golf ball, and as large as we see it today. If that isn't a blatant contradiction or impossibility I don't know what is.

[Sparko]

Sparko, I need you to follow me here. If B theory is correct the Big Bang does not simple exist as background radiation it exists as it was. So at one point the golf ball sized universe contained all space and time. That still exists. But the universe we see today also contains all space and time. You can't claim that the golf sized universe still lurks in some corner of the universe or at some different coordinate because it is the whole of space and time. So the whole of space and time exists as the size of a golf ball, and as large as we see it today. If that isn't a blatant contradiction or impossibility I don't know what is.

No you are not getting it. The golf ball sized universe did not contain all of time. It was just a moment in time. It contained all of space-time at that MOMENT.

The entire 4 dimensional universe existed/exists at "once" from an outside view, from the big bang to the heath death or rapture, or whatever the end will be. But "all of time" includes all of that, and the big bang was just a moment, a location in that overall 4 dimensional universe. Just like right now the universe we see is only this particular time location in the whole thing. One frame out of many.

If you take the film analogy, the whole film strip is the 4 dimensional universe, Time is the length of the film, the frames are moments in that time. So the first frame (big bang) was only one time location, and we are currently at another one. Each frame contains all of space-time at that temporal location in the 4 dimensional object that is the universe.

[seer]

No you are not getting it. The golf ball sized universe did not contain all of time. It was just a moment in time. It contained all of space-time at that MOMENT.

The entire 4 dimensional universe existed/exists at "once" from an outside view, from the big bang to the heath death or rapture, or whatever the end will be. But "all of time" includes all of that, and the big bang was just a moment, a location in that overall 4 dimensional universe. Just like right now the universe we see is only this particular time location in the whole thing. One frame out of many.

If you take the film analogy, the whole film strip is the 4 dimensional universe, Time is the length of the film, the frames are moments in that time. So the first frame (big bang) was only one time location, and we are currently at another one. Each frame contains all of space-time at that temporal location in the 4 dimensional object that is the universe.

Yes it contained all of space and time at that moment (if we can even use time language). But that moment still exists, that condition still exists it has not changed. You can not escape the logic, the universe, the size of a golf ball exists along with a universe as we see it today. Eluding to a 4 dimensional universe does not change that fact. All of space and time still exists as golf ball sized, and doesn't exist as that size, both are true. So the 4 dimensional universe exists as we see it to day and exists as its initial small scale.

And I will say it again Sparko, B Theory removes the need for God and a creation event.

[Sparko]

Yes it contained all of space and time at that moment (if we can even use time language). But that moment still exists, that condition still exists it has not changed. You can not escape the logic, the universe, the size of a golf ball exists along with a universe as we see it today. Eluding to a 4 dimensional universe does not change that fact. All of space and time still exists as golf ball sized, and doesn't exist as that size, both are true. So the 4 dimensional universe exists as we see it to day and exists as its initial small scale.

And I will say it again Sparko, B Theory removes the need for God and a creation event.

It just means God created it all at once. From his point of view all of time already has happened. That is how he knows what we call the future. He is already knows every point in time. He is omnipresent, not only in space but in time. To him the entire universe from beginning to end is nothing more than a snow globe sitting on his desk.

[seer]

It just means God created it all at once. From his point of view all of time already has happened. That is how he knows what we call the future. He is already knows every point in time. He is omnipresent, not only in space but in time. To him the entire universe from beginning to end is nothing more than a snow globe sitting on his desk.

Except in B theory there is no need for God or the creation event. You can say that God did it, but that is an unnecessary add on...

[Stoic]

You're saying that there is no flow, right? There is a continuity though, which makes it indistinguishable from flow.

There is continuity in spatial coordinates, but that does not necessarily mean there is any flow from one point to another.

To say that two objects are located at different places just means they have different spatial coordinates. It doesn't mean there is any flow between the two objects.

To say that two events are located at different times just means they have different time coordinates. It doesn't mean there is any flow between the two events.

[seer]

To say that two events are located at different times just means they have different time coordinates. It doesn't mean there is any flow between the two events.

1. How does that work when it includes the entire universe?

https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...70#post1407370

2. What is a time coordinate, when time is static? How does one distinguish between time coordinates?

[Sparko]

Except in B theory there is no need for God or the creation event. You can say that God did it, but that is an unnecessary add on...

Why would that be? It didn't create itself. God made it.

[seer]

Why would that be? It didn't create itself. God made it.

On B Theory - the universe was not created, it always existed as it is. Again, I will quote Craig:

William Lane Craig Naturalism: A Critical Analysis (200) pp 232-3

''The Elliott Argument'' welcomes proponents of both the ''A-theory of time'' and ''B-theory of time''. B-Theory of time, or ''static time'', falls under the definition of ''STE'' because even though tenseless, spacetime still exists and is eternal (without true beginning). "On a B-theory of time, the universe never truly comes into being at all. The whole four-dimensional space-time manifold just exists tenselessly. Although the space-time manifold is intrinsically temporal, in that one of its four dimensions is time, nonetheless it is extrinsically timeless, in that it does not exist in an embedding hyper-time but exists tenselessly, neither coming into nor going out of being. The four dimensional space-time manifold is this latter sense eternal."