Announcement

Collapse

Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Dualism on the chopping block

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post


    To assert that only mental and physical are the fundamental substances of the universe (traditional meaning, which encompasses existence and reality) is to put cart before horse - by a few miles. We need a universe first. For that, we need a Creator.

    At least the mental part is fundamental and even eternal. God Himself would fall into the mental category don't you think? He's Spirit, and he thinks. He's immaterial (or is He?). I would say that Spirit is much closer to the mental than the physical. That could just be pop culture though, you know...spirits floating around and going through walls.

    Again, the world here in which we live is said to be dualistic, having a mental immaterial part and a physical material part, both of which are of completely distinct fundamental substances. Those that subscribe to ex nihilo claim that God created the physical part out of nothing. Let's go with that for a moment. We'll tackle that issue later. The mental substance on the other hand, did not have to be created out of nothing as it already existed within the Godhead. God is a thinking, rational, and conscious being. That's the mental substance. It's eternal. So my question " where did God get the physical substance from", remains a mystery. The only place anyone can point to is nowhere (created from nothing). When we ask where did He get the mental substance, it's a little easier to answer, because God is composed of the mental substance. Mental substance is eternal.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Machinist View Post
      Hmmm...the feeling of knowing states. It is a feeling it seems. Cognitive dissonance seems to be a feeling. Can you feel the liars paradox for instance? It's like an inner phantom feeling, not a physical one. I wonder if that is the soul doing the feeling. It could be the case that souls only feel and not really know anything. So as we die, and when we die, everything we know will perish while the soul, that immaterial aspect that was shaped by what we did know at one point, will continue. I'm not really sure if the Bible is clear on this one either. That is, what happens the very moment you die? I remember one verse says that the dead know nothing, and then Paul says absent of the body, present with the Lord.

      Some studies have suggested that after death, there is still electrical activity in the brain that last a little while. Some have said that the person has post death experiences, perhaps even re-living their entire lives over. Although this wouldn't work for those unfortunate ones that die in explosions or fall into acid.
      Being instantly vaporized would tend to preclude the possibility, but falling into a vat of acid wouldn't be quick enough.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Being instantly vaporized would tend to preclude the possibility, but falling into a vat of acid wouldn't be quick enough.
        Yep.

        Comment


        • #34
          Creation ex nihilo is the crucial doctrine that protects Christian theism from making God essentially dependent on the world.


          Link


          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

            The closest I've experienced to that is the tip-of-the-tongue phenomenon (and feeling-of-knowing states as mentioned in the link). But I believe those are just memory retrieval issues. If I could actually remember the word, I would have no trouble saying it, so I assume that's not what you are talking about.
            No, not the same. I know exactly what I wish to say but can't speak those words although I have no difficulty saying something else while it passes.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Machinist View Post

              At least the mental part is fundamental and even eternal. God Himself would fall into the mental category don't you think? He's Spirit, and he thinks. He's immaterial (or is He?). I would say that Spirit is much closer to the mental than the physical. That could just be pop culture though, you know...spirits floating around and going through walls.

              Again, the world here in which we live is said to be dualistic, having a mental immaterial part and a physical material part, both of which are of completely distinct fundamental substances. Those that subscribe to ex nihilo claim that God created the physical part out of nothing. Let's go with that for a moment. We'll tackle that issue later. The mental substance on the other hand, did not have to be created out of nothing as it already existed within the Godhead. God is a thinking, rational, and conscious being. That's the mental substance. It's eternal. So my question " where did God get the physical substance from", remains a mystery. The only place anyone can point to is nowhere (created from nothing). When we ask where did He get the mental substance, it's a little easier to answer, because God is composed of the mental substance. Mental substance is eternal.
              I really think you're being overly literal with this but even if not this doesn't track. If the physical isn't eternal what makes the supposed mental substance eternal? God is spirit, Scripture establishes that - but do spirits, or God, require any substance just to think? That isn't established.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                I really think you're being overly literal with this but even if not this doesn't track. If the physical isn't eternal what makes the supposed mental substance eternal? God is spirit, Scripture establishes that - but do spirits, or God, require any substance just to think? That isn't established.
                We really don't know what "substance" is. That may just be an arbitrary label.

                The mental is the immaterial aspect. And if God is immaterial, and He thinks, then He has the mental substance. Therefore, the mental is eternal. Apparently, God just drew the physical from nothing. What I find contradictory is that many theists will criticize atheists for suggesting that something came from nothing, all the while maintaining that God made something from nothing. Are they talking about the same nothing here?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Rather let me say it like this: it doesn't strike me as being that great a mystery when we ask where did consciousness come from, as it already existed. I mean, sure, self existence is quite the mystery, but if God is a conscious being, and is Eternal, then consciousness is eternal.

                  The physical, on the other hand is the great mystery, because it is said that the physical was created from pure nothingness. That is, it is not eternal (or is it?).

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                    We really don't know what "substance" is. That may just be an arbitrary label.

                    The mental is the immaterial aspect. And if God is immaterial, and He thinks, then He has the mental substance. Therefore, the mental is eternal. Apparently, God just drew the physical from nothing. What I find contradictory is that many theists will criticize atheists for suggesting that something came from nothing, all the while maintaining that God made something from nothing. Are they talking about the same nothing here?
                    No, they are not talking about the same nothing. No stuff is not the same thing as nothing.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                      Rather let me say it like this: it doesn't strike me as being that great a mystery when we ask where did consciousness come from, as it already existed. I mean, sure, self existence is quite the mystery, but if God is a conscious being, and is Eternal, then consciousness is eternal.

                      The physical, on the other hand is the great mystery, because it is said that the physical was created from pure nothingness. That is, it is not eternal (or is it?).
                      Okay, no. To avoid the ex nihilo problem, we need a First Cause. We don't need a first 'substance' or a first 'physical matter'. God doesn't have to be material or mental to be the First Cause. But rationally, based on the logic and Scripture, He does 'have' (logical necessity) to be first and to solve that can of philosophic worms, He is also necessarily eternal (which Scripture already said He was before we humans started down this rabbit hole.

                      If in the beginning there is nothing at all then the ex nihilo problem is insurmountable. True nothingness, however, is what we're talking about - only that's just a tag line because in nothingness there would be no name for nothingness - as in a zero set without even a definition. Nada, at all. No mind, body or spirit. No space or time. No Taco Bell. NOTHING.

                      But if in the beginning there is God, He doesn't need to be of a definable substance - He just needs to exist as the First Cause. The nature of His Being does not necessarily have anything to do with the nature of His creation. Because there is Something as First Cause, the universe did not come from nothing.

                      And if you ask me about God's parents, I'm gonna . A lot!
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                        Okay, no. To avoid the ex nihilo problem, we need a First Cause. We don't need a first 'substance' or a first 'physical matter'. God doesn't have to be material or mental to be the First Cause.
                        Hey, thanks for playing!



                        One school of thought says that matter is co-eternal with God.

                        Also, from what I understand, all matter is made up of immaterial energy, so we could be chasing our tails here on how matter came about, or where God acquired the materials for creation. If all matter is organized energy, resonating at certain frequencies, then it's a mute point to ask where did matter come from.

                        We can ask however, is this quantum soup, this energy that ultimately vibrated in such a way that gave rise to the physical world around us, co-eternal with God? Or is this energy, this quantum field part of God? This sort of leans toward panentheism. It is immaterial after all, so it's not a far fetched idea and could be more doctrinally palatable. There could be other implications as far as it perhaps contradicting, say, the doctrine of God's Sovereignty, but I am simply building from the ground up here in this investigation.

                        And yes, I would also begin with a First Cause, an eternal Rational Mind that spoke things into existence. What I am wondering about here though, are the various views throughout history as to what it means when we say that God created from nothing. The Bible is not clear on this matter. The only light that Genesis shines on this subject is :

                        And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

                        Panentheism is rejected my most evangelical Christians though because they extend the punishing effects of the fall to include all of matter, all of the quantum world. I am not seeing however, that there is any basis for this. If Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, then it was there minds, their incorporeal aspect that fell, not the quantum universe around them . Perhaps an argument can be made along the lines of man's body being made from dust, so that man is ultimately matter, and the Fall ultimately extended to include matter itself. I think that is a very sloppy line of reasoning, and not too satisfying, but I wonder if that's the basis for the rejection of the idea that creation is in and part of God, that energy is co-eternal with God.

                        One view has it that God and the empirical universe are completely separate in every sense, almost like in a different dimension. Other views have creation as a part of God, as though God expanded Himself in a sense to bring about creation, as we call it. At least that is the picture that I have in my mind...sort of like a balloon that expands and contracts. That may be silly to some, but it's just a picture in my mind, a metaphor that enables me to even contemplate the notion.






                        "And if you ask me about God's parents, I'm gonna . A lot!"

                        No, I begin with an eternal rational mind. I believe that is the beginning of all logic and reason. Atheists claim they believe in a possibility that something could come from nothing with no first cause. I don't think there is any way possible you can make deductive arguments and really know anything with certainty unless you begin with an eternal and rational mind. That's basically how far i've gotten with philosophy. That is the only truth I can say is true with certainty. I learned that from Seer.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I just found this. It looks like the Bible does make a distinction with two different words for create:

                          In the original Hebrew language, there are two words used creating or making something:
                          • bârâ' (bara) - to create something out of nothing.
                          • ‛âώâh (asah) - to create something from pre-existing materials, to make.

                          The hebrew verb ‘bara’ in scripture is only ever used in relation to God. The verb bara is never used with respect to things that man may make, or create. Only God is assigned the use of the verb bara.

                          So in the very first verse in the Bible, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1), the verb bara is used - which means, to create something (all matter) out of nothing. You’ll note that everything starts off as a a messy glob created from the verb ‘bara’, but six verses later, the scripture states that “…God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.”, Genesis 1:7. Here the verb ‘asah’ is used - which means to form or make from pre-existing materials.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                            I just found this. It looks like the Bible does make a distinction with two different words for create:

                            In the original Hebrew language, there are two words used creating or making something:
                            • bârâ' (bara) - to create something out of nothing.
                            • ‛âώâh (asah) - to create something from pre-existing materials, to make.

                            The hebrew verb ‘bara’ in scripture is only ever used in relation to God. The verb bara is never used with respect to things that man may make, or create. Only God is assigned the use of the verb bara.

                            So in the very first verse in the Bible, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1), the verb bara is used - which means, to create something (all matter) out of nothing. You’ll note that everything starts off as a a messy glob created from the verb ‘bara’, but six verses later, the scripture states that “…God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.”, Genesis 1:7. Here the verb ‘asah’ is used - which means to form or make from pre-existing materials.


                            Okay, seriously, I'll get back to this probably tomorrow - I have to post some pictures for a certain Doubting Cow Poke and then Tylenol and I are gonna be new best buds!

                            I was a good girl! I went to the gate twice, fed things, worked on the garden and porch (hey, 80 in the shade here!) and spent two hours sitting up figuring out why my credit card statement was so weird (and did it, too). Normal people will be saying 'so?' - but I'm a little too busy on OWW!!!!

                            Translation: I'm hurting a lot right now but it's good 'cause I'm pushing myself.

                            Now, I'm gonna push myself to bed...
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post



                              Okay, seriously, I'll get back to this probably tomorrow - I have to post some pictures for a certain Doubting Cow Poke and then Tylenol and I are gonna be new best buds!

                              I was a good girl! I went to the gate twice, fed things, worked on the garden and porch (hey, 80 in the shade here!) and spent two hours sitting up figuring out why my credit card statement was so weird (and did it, too). Normal people will be saying 'so?' - but I'm a little too busy on OWW!!!!

                              Translation: I'm hurting a lot right now but it's good 'cause I'm pushing myself.

                              Now, I'm gonna push myself to bed...
                              The heat is unbelievable this summer. I don't know if it's my age, or if it's really getting hotter. Get some rest! Take care.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The most fundamental truth to me at this point, is that consciousness did not arise from non conscious processes. Consciousness in some form is eternal, that is, the lights have always been on. The only alternative is to say that something came from nothing. Some people seem to be comfortable with that. It doesn't make me feel any particular way, other than wondering how someone can even suggest the possibility. It collides with the very notion of existence. If something comes from nothing...what are some implications of this. That is, if this is true, what are some implications with regard to logic and reality?

                                It seems and feels to me, that there has always been something rather than nothing. Something that is existent, did not appear into existence from non existence. We must begin with self existence, and more specifically, the self existence of a Rational Mind. If we don't, then we are implying that rationality arose and came into existence via non rational processes. That's the same as saying there was nothing, then there was something. If there was nothing, then something, there would mean there was something enfolded into that nothingness, which would in turn mean there was something, even if you posit the quantum state. You can't really escape this brute fact. It's the beginning of all logic and reality.





                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
                                161 responses
                                510 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by seer, 02-15-2024, 11:24 AM
                                88 responses
                                354 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Diogenes, 01-22-2024, 07:37 PM
                                21 responses
                                133 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X