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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Dualism on the chopping block

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

    If the physical is created then it's not eternal. That God used it in the Incarnation doesn't make the physical an intrinsic part of the Godhead.

    Given the New Creation, I expect dualism is continual for us. That doesn't make it eternal since the physical wasn't eternal to begin with.

    Also, you have got to stop philosophizing on no sleep!
    So in one view, the mental is eternal, the physical is not. Again, dualism states that there are two fundamental substances in all existence, in all reality: the mental (consciousness, spirit, soul, etc.) and the physical (matter).

    The mental is obviously eternal. If God is spirit, then that would encompass the immaterial mental part I would think.

    Where do you think God got the physical matter to create with? If from nothing, then is it possible that something can come from nothing? You know the Mormons at least believe that matter was co-eternal with God, and I don't think the Bible is clear on the subject either way. What I enjoy doing is exploring the logical implications of these concepts and seeing where the various views compliment or contradict one another. It seems that many people on this forum see that as folly.

    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Also, you have got to stop philosophizing on no sleep!
    Have I mentioned the sleep issue on the forum? My sleep has actually improved over the past year or so.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      No, it really isn't. Remembering something that you no longer have the mental capacity for and finding that frustrating indicates a greater comprehension but without the capacity. It's not enough to remember - the person has to be able to comprehend the loss.
      I guess it's easier for some people to imagine than for others.

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      • #18
        I don't know if this has anything to do with ya'lls conversation, but I have read something before that suggests what we see is actually hallucinated. I can't remember what it was that I read exactly, but something about the the geometry of the optic lenses and surfaces in the eye should create an image in the mind that is riddled with blind spots, but instead, what information is there interpolates from the surrounding data to fill in those blind spots.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Machinist View Post
          I don't know if this has anything to do with ya'lls conversation, but I have read something before that suggests what we see is actually hallucinated. I can't remember what it was that I read exactly, but something about the the geometry of the optic lenses and surfaces in the eye should create an image in the mind that is riddled with blind spots, but instead, what information is there interpolates from the surrounding data to fill in those blind spots.
          Our mind connects the dots as you will. Moreover, IIRC, our optic nerves gives us what we see upside down. Our brains flip it right side up

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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          • #20
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Our mind connects the dots as you will. Moreover, IIRC, our optic nerves gives us what we see upside down. Our brains flip it right side up
            Brains just don't want to have fun it seems.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Machinist View Post

              Brains just don't want to have fun it seems.
              Thank you. Now I have Cyndi Lauper's Girls Just Wanna Have Fun playing through my mind only substituting brains for girls.

              That's all they really waaaaaaannnnt musical note.gif

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Thank you. Now I have Cyndi Lauper's Girls Just Wanna Have Fun playing through my mind only substituting brains for girls.

                That's all they really waaaaaaannnnt musical note.gif
                It's payback for that rick roll.

                I'm slick.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                  I guess it's easier for some people to imagine than for others.
                  While you (general) are declining mentally? That's the problem - mental acuity is too closely linked to memory, A memory without the acuity to both recall it and to understand it would not result in the frustration we're discussing.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                    While you (general) are declining mentally? That's the problem - mental acuity is too closely linked to memory, A memory without the acuity to both recall it and to understand it would not result in the frustration we're discussing.
                    As I get older, I tend to become a little more forgetful (did I take my medicine already? where did I put my keys?), but I haven't yet lost the memory of not having such problems to such an extent when I was younger. That's how I can realize that I'm losing capability.

                    It's frustrating to lose capability, though I'll grant the possibility that someday that frustration will go away, when I can no longer remember what I was frustrated about.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                      So in one view, the mental is eternal, the physical is not. Again, dualism states that there are two fundamental substances in all existence, in all reality: the mental (consciousness, spirit, soul, etc.) and the physical (matter).

                      The mental is obviously eternal. If God is spirit, then that would encompass the immaterial mental part I would think.

                      Where do you think God got the physical matter to create with? If from nothing, then is it possible that something can come from nothing? You know the Mormons at least believe that matter was co-eternal with God, and I don't think the Bible is clear on the subject either way. What I enjoy doing is exploring the logical implications of these concepts and seeing where the various views compliment or contradict one another. It seems that many people on this forum see that as folly.
                      Er, that's not the only understanding of dualism but okay, let's go with it.

                      Neither existence as we experience it nor reality (same caveat) are necessarily (formal meaning) eternal. God is, but only God is necessarily eternal.

                      To assert that only mental and physical are the fundamental substances of the universe (traditional meaning, which encompasses existence and reality) is to put cart before horse - by a few miles. We need a universe first. For that, we need a Creator.

                      We happen to have one: He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. Hence He can be the First Cause.

                      Great now we have a universe. But where is it necessary that God be of the same substance?

                      God doesn't create ex nihlio because He isn't nothing. But that something doesn't have to have a substance to it. There's nothing that requires this necessarily even allowing that God always choses to act rationally. That just gets us a rational world, not a necessarily substantive one.

                      The problem is in trying to set limits on an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and eternal Being. God has lots of qualities. God doesn't violate His Nature. And God's will not has the same effect of our 'can not'.

                      Just because He won't doesn't mean He lacks the capability. I can stick my hand into a hornet's nest but I ain't a gonna!

                      Dualism tells us something about our world and how we relate to it. It does not tell us about God nor can it.


                      Have I mentioned the sleep issue on the forum? My sleep has actually improved over the past year or so.
                      No, you haven't - I was just joking.

                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                        As I get older, I tend to become a little more forgetful (did I take my medicine already? where did I put my keys?), but I haven't yet lost the memory of not having such problems to such an extent when I was younger. That's how I can realize that I'm losing capability.

                        It's frustrating to lose capability, though I'll grant the possibility that someday that frustration will go away, when I can no longer remember what I was frustrated about.
                        Yep, this is why I think we're talking about different things. This perspective is from someone who retains their mental acuity. Sure, forgetting can then be frustrating. But turned around, someone who lacks mental acuity lacks the ability to recognize the loss IF the mind is the only working reference.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                          Yep, this is why I think we're talking about different things. This perspective is from someone who retains their mental acuity. Sure, forgetting can then be frustrating. But turned around, someone who lacks mental acuity lacks the ability to recognize the loss IF the mind is the only working reference.
                          Is there a way to determine whether the mind is the only working reference, other than noting a lack of frustration?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            Is there a way to determine whether the mind is the only working reference, other than noting a lack of frustration?
                            I think so, but I'd have to give it some serious thought before being able to argue it. What comes to mind is the childlikeness that is distinctly not childhood. In my own experience, I will have a disconnect where I know what I want to say but cannot say those words. Other words, no problem - just not those for a minute or so. That's definitely a mind/body disconnect but it feels like something more - that's the part I need to think about to be able to explain coherently.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                              I think so, but I'd have to give it some serious thought before being able to argue it. What comes to mind is the childlikeness that is distinctly not childhood. In my own experience, I will have a disconnect where I know what I want to say but cannot say those words. Other words, no problem - just not those for a minute or so. That's definitely a mind/body disconnect but it feels like something more - that's the part I need to think about to be able to explain coherently.
                              The closest I've experienced to that is the tip-of-the-tongue phenomenon (and feeling-of-knowing states as mentioned in the link). But I believe those are just memory retrieval issues. If I could actually remember the word, I would have no trouble saying it, so I assume that's not what you are talking about.

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                              • #30
                                Hmmm...the feeling of knowing states. It is a feeling it seems. Cognitive dissonance seems to be a feeling. Can you feel the liars paradox for instance? It's like an inner phantom feeling, not a physical one. I wonder if that is the soul doing the feeling. It could be the case that souls only feel and not really know anything. So as we die, and when we die, everything we know will perish while the soul, that immaterial aspect that was shaped by what we did know at one point, will continue. I'm not really sure if the Bible is clear on this one either. That is, what happens the very moment you die? I remember one verse says that the dead know nothing, and then Paul says absent of the body, present with the Lord.

                                Some studies have suggested that after death, there is still electrical activity in the brain that last a little while. Some have said that the person has post death experiences, perhaps even re-living their entire lives over. Although this wouldn't work for those unfortunate ones that die in explosions or fall into acid.

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