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Are Unalienable Rights Possible Apart From God?

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  • Are Unalienable Rights Possible Apart From God?

    How would such unalienable rights be logically possible apart from God and universal moral truths?

    From the Founders:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    From John Locke who influenced the Founders:

    The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions: for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent, and infinitely wise maker; all the servants of one sovereign master, sent into the world by his order, and about his business; they are his property, whose workmanship they are, made to last during his, not one another's pleasure
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    How would such unalienable rights be logically possible apart from God and universal moral truths?
    You haven't shown that they are possible with "God and universal moral truths".

    Despite what the person you are quoting said about unalienable rights, he clearly didn't believe they existed since he owned hundreds of slaves, many of whom were without liberty from birth - a practice condoned in the bible.

    Unalienable rights are only possible in a society that incorporates them into its laws and social practices. They do not come from your god or from universal moral truths, because neither of those things exists, and no society based on or around your god has ever had them.





    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Roy View Post
      You haven't shown that they are possible with "God and universal moral truths".

      Despite what the person you are quoting said about unalienable rights, he clearly didn't believe they existed since he owned hundreds of slaves, many of whom were without liberty from birth - a practice condoned in the bible.

      Unalienable rights are only possible in a society that incorporates them into its laws and social practices. They do not come from your god or from universal moral truths, because neither of those things exists, and no society based on or around your god has ever had them.
      If a society invents them, then they are not unalienable - they are cultural and relative. And such rights would not depend on whether a specific person practiced them or not. Even one who claims to believe in them.

      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Where in Scripture are we told that God has endowed us with ANY unalienable rights? Other then the right for Christians to be called the children/sons of God? (John 1:12)
        When I Survey....

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Faber View Post
          Where in Scripture are we told that God has endowed us with ANY unalienable rights? Other then the right to be called the children/sons of God? (John 1:12)
          I agree it doesn't. But Locke's argument is that because we are the property of God, we do not get to take liberties with our fellow man, since they belong to God, not created for our own personal pleasures. Then we find God given property rights in the Mosaic law. And Scripture grounds the dignity of men in the transcendent. All men have worth, more worth than animals for instance. And we are to love our fellow man and do good to them. That is a universal God ordained truth. I think rights would naturally follow from those ideals.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer
            If a society invents them, then they are not unalienable - they are cultural and relative.
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            [Where in Scripture are we told that God has endowed us with ANY unalienable rights? Other then the right to be called the children/sons of God? (John 1:12)
            I agree it doesn't.
            So
            - society cannot endow us with unalienable rights;
            - you haven't shown that "God and universal moral truths" can endow us with unalienable rights;
            - you admit that scripture doesn't endow us with inalienable rights;
            - the bible explicitly prevents people from having the rights you describe as inalienable.

            You appear to be criticising atheism for not making possible something that theism doesn't make possible either, that is almost certainly impossible, and is unscriptural even if it isn't impossible.


            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

            Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Roy View Post
              So
              - society cannot endow us with unalienable rights;
              - you haven't shown that "God and universal moral truths" can endow us with unalienable rights;
              - you admit that scripture doesn't endow us with inalienable rights;
              - the bible explicitly prevents people from having the rights you describe as inalienable.

              You appear to be criticising atheism for not making possible something that theism doesn't make possible either, that is almost certainly impossible, and is unscriptural even if it isn't impossible.

              1. I'm glad you agree.

              2. Not in so many words. But I do give some weight to Locke's logic. And, I will repeat:

              But Locke's argument is that because we are the property of God, we do not get to take liberties with our fellow man, since they belong to God, not created for our own personal pleasures. Then we find God given property rights in the Mosaic law. And Scripture grounds the dignity of men in the transcendent. All men have worth, more worth than animals for instance. And we are to love our fellow man and do good to them. That is a universal God ordained truth. I think rights would naturally follow from those ideals.

              3. See above.

              4. Yet for the reasons I stated Scripture can offer a grounding for such rights. We are to love our fellow man, and we are more than mere cosmic accidents, and have a higher worth than animals. Those offer more of a basis for human rights than atheism could - not that atheism has any moral ideals...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                1. I'm glad you agree.
                I wasn't agreeing, I was restating your 'argument'.

                2. Not in so many words. But I do give some weight to Locke's logic. And, I will repeat:

                But Locke's argument is that because we are the property of God, we do not get to take liberties with our fellow man, since they belong to God, not created for our own personal pleasures. Then we find God given property rights in the Mosaic law. And Scripture grounds the dignity of men in the transcendent. All men have worth, more worth than animals for instance. And we are to love our fellow man and do good to them. That is a universal God ordained truth. I think rights would naturally follow from those ideals.
                That would be society endowing us with inalienable rights, which you have said is impossible.

                You are criticising atheism for not doing something that theism doesn't do. You have no argument, no logic and no understanding, only bias.




                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  I wasn't agreeing, I was restating your 'argument'.That would be society endowing us with inalienable rights, which you have said is impossible.
                  OK, you lost me.

                  You are criticising atheism for not doing something that theism doesn't do. You have no argument, no logic and no understanding, only bias.
                  Actually I gave reasons for why God could be the source of unalienable rights.

                  1. God given property rights.
                  2. God given commands for how to treat our fellow man.
                  3. Transcendent Human worth and dignity.
                  4. All men are created in the image of God which is a base line for equality.
                  Last edited by seer; 12-23-2021, 06:49 AM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Actually I gave reasons for why God could be the source of unalienable rights.
                    I gave reasons why your particular god isn't and can't be the source of inalienable rights, especially the ones you listed. Reasons that you have not addressed, and don't seem to understand.

                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      On a very very strict one-to-one logical basis, unless there is an unchanging standard of moral truths, you can't say that this or that act is wrong or right, moral or immoral. All you could say is that you feel that this act is moral or immoral. Unless there is an immutable standard, then saying something is wrong or right is merely an opinion.


                      Merry Christmas to all!


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        4. Yet for the reasons I stated Scripture can offer a grounding for such rights. We are to love our fellow man, and we are more than mere cosmic accidents, and have a higher worth than animals. Those offer more of a basis for human rights than atheism could - not that atheism has any moral ideals...
                        Unalienable human rights? This wording is a Western cultural expression of what may be the ideal of human rights 'should be' unalienable. The scriptures and writings of all religions philosophies, cultures and belief systems propose a system of 'necessary' human rights and limits to human rights, There is common theme, but they are varied and diverse, and at times allow slavery, inequality of the sexes, and other limited human rights that would not be unalienable rights to all humans regardless of race, religion, gender or culture.

                        This ideal is not apparent in the scripture of any ancient religion including the Bible.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-03-2022, 09:06 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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