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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Society in a Godless World

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  • #16
    One theory...the iceberg model shows how societies (as social structures) are formed.....




    At the bottom of the iceberg is the mental map or paradigm or worldview----the assumptions we start off with---determine how our systems and institutions function and are organized....
    the theory is that if we change the paradigm...we change the structures and thereby the outcome/"events"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Stoic View Post

      You might want to scrutinize your OP then:

      "we've been busily killing each other with little to no provocation"

      "all the times we not only got along but acted altruistically"
      Yes, I'm aware of the contradiction - sorry, I thought you were being snarky. But 'some are better than others' doesn't answer the fundamental question of how they got to being that cooperative in the first place. Family ties don't scale well and aren't necessarily a sufficient 'pathway' .From a naturalism POV I'm not seeing a good way to explain this.

      Mind you, I'm still exploring. like I said, so I'm not asserting an argument.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • #18
        Originally posted by siam View Post
        One theory...the iceberg model shows how societies (as social structures) are formed.....




        At the bottom of the iceberg is the mental map or paradigm or worldview----the assumptions we start off with---determine how our systems and institutions function and are organized....
        the theory is that if we change the paradigm...we change the structures and thereby the outcome/"events"
        I'll look into it, thanks!
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

          Yes, I'm aware of the contradiction - sorry, I thought you were being snarky. But 'some are better than others' doesn't answer the fundamental question of how they got to being that cooperative in the first place. Family ties don't scale well and aren't necessarily a sufficient 'pathway' .From a naturalism POV I'm not seeing a good way to explain this.

          Mind you, I'm still exploring. like I said, so I'm not asserting an argument.
          Kin selection and reciprocal altruism provide the genetic predisposition for cooperation. That alone goes a long way towards explaining the amount of cooperation we see in this world, and the fact that there are limits to such cooperation.

          No doubt there is more to it than that, but nothing that is likely to cause a problem with regard to a naturalistic explanation.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

            Kin selection and reciprocal altruism provide the genetic predisposition for cooperation. That alone goes a long way towards explaining the amount of cooperation we see in this world, and the fact that there are limits to such cooperation.

            No doubt there is more to it than that, but nothing that is likely to cause a problem with regard to a naturalistic explanation.
            Thanks, I'll check it out!
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              I'm beginning to work on this argument. It seems to me that if there genuinely is no God there are a few things that make no sense. How does society come about? Within the last century we've been busily killing each other with little to no provocation at what is supposedly the height of civilization - human nature seems to have only limited instinct toward cooperation and harmony. So how does human nature explain all the people we didn't kill and all the times we not only got along but acted altruistically?

              Is anyone familiar with any work along these lines and books I can check out?


              Humans are tribal species, intrinsically defending their own tribe (community, group, religion).

              We’ve been killing for the sake of DNA reproduction, wealth, hatred, and hierarchical inequality for hundreds of centuries.

              Civilization is a way of organizing a society (a tribe) rather than anything related to God.
              https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilization

              I think it should be applied case by case, and not overall for humanity.

              Any society has any values.


              Mentioning Immanuel Kant in this article spurred me to share.

              https://onezero.medium.com/could-a-r...e-10fa374c3f86

              'Is it possible that just as technology that imitated the eye has allowed us to see what the eye could not see, so technology that imitates the mind will allow us to perceive what the mind cannot perceive? '

              The centuries-long discussion continues, as we might see first results, but not the answers for eternal questions, of course.
              'Kritik der reinen Vernunft'.

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              • #22
                I thought of another one, showing civilization.
                'Brave New World', Aldous Huxley.
                For sure, the classic, the extreme.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  I'm beginning to work on this argument. It seems to me that if there genuinely is no God there are a few things that make no sense. How does society come about? Within the last century we've been busily killing each other with little to no provocation at what is supposedly the height of civilization - human nature seems to have only limited instinct toward cooperation and harmony. So how does human nature explain all the people we didn't kill and all the times we not only got along but acted altruistically?

                  Is anyone familiar with any work along these lines and books I can check out?
                  The 'Society in a Godless world' would be the same as the 'Society in a world with God.' Even though I believe in God there is no objective verifiable evidence God exists, therefore objective evidence would demonstrate our physical existence and our human society is as it it is regardless of whether God exists or not.

                  In fact many of those that believe in God in history have abused out world and humanity as if it is Godless.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-08-2021, 12:15 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post

                    [Christianity] has had an immeasurable effect.
                    Particularly if you were the "wrong" kind of christian, a non-believer or any kind of jew. Then, the immeasurable effects of christianity were ones those other groups might well have chosen to forego.

                    When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
                    - Anonymous

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Markus River View Post

                      Particularly if you were the "wrong" kind of christian, a non-believer or any kind of jew. Then, the immeasurable effects of christianity were ones those other groups might well have chosen to forego.
                      Nonsense, Christianity set the foundation for God given inalienable human rights. Through Christians writers like John Locke, William Blackstone, Samuel Rutherford, up to the Founders. Not that we have always followed these principles.
                      Last edited by seer; 11-18-2021, 10:33 AM.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        Nonsense, Christianity set the foundation for God given inalienable human rights
                        Really. It's almost as if The Crusades, The Inquisition and The Reformation never occurred.

                        And I certainly don't accept that the human rights I enjoy were obtained via the generosity of your god. For the most part they were won by the pain, blood and sacrifice of our forebears in standing against the entrenched attitudes of the old "elites" and their "divine rights of monarchy", who preferred us proles to accept our lot as chattels. The same elites who fought against every effort to improve, via the recognising of inaleanable rights, the general lot of man. And who would today strip away your / our rights in the blink of an eye if they thought they could get away with it.
                        When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
                        - Anonymous

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Markus River View Post

                          Really. It's almost as if The Crusades, The Inquisition and The Reformation never occurred.
                          And?

                          And I certainly don't accept that the human rights I enjoy were obtained via the generosity of your god. For the most part they were won by the pain, blood and sacrifice of our forebears in standing against the entrenched attitudes of the old "elites" and their "divine rights of monarchy", who preferred us proles to accept our lot as chattels. The same elites who fought against every effort to improve, via the recognising of inaleanable rights, the general lot of man. And who would today strip away your / our rights in the blink of an eye if they thought they could get away with it.

                          Inalienable human rights could only come from God, no God no possibility of inalienable rights.... And it was the work Lex Rex that began to undermined the divine rights of kings - by a Scottish Presbyterian minister. Which was based in Scripture, natural and Scottish law.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post

                            And?
                            And? And Perhaps those periods of history, where the followers of your religion were directly responsible for wholesale torture and slaughter of other human beings, and all in the name of your religion, are somethings you might feel worth adopting a degree of humble contrition over. Rather than boastfully crowing about how your god and religion have somehow invented human rights. Those rights were certainly in short supply to the non-believers, Jews / Muslims or the wrong kind of Christian.

                            Inalienable human rights could only come from God, no God no possibility of inalienable rights....

                            Great! Start by proving the existence of your god. No evidence of god, gives no god, gives no “god given” human rights.

                            And it was the work Lex Rex that began to undermined the divine rights of kings - by a Scottish Presbyterian minister. Which was based in Scripture, natural and Scottish law.

                            Yes, I can see why a writer that espoused religious intolerance, rather than, say, John Locke, who advocated the opposite, would appeal to someone like you.
                            When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
                            - Anonymous

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Markus River View Post
                              And? And Perhaps those periods of history, where the followers of your religion were directly responsible for wholesale torture and slaughter of other human beings, and all in the name of your religion, are somethings you might feel worth adopting a degree of humble contrition over. Rather than boastfully crowing about how your god and religion have somehow invented human rights. Those rights were certainly in short supply to the non-believers, Jews / Muslims or the wrong kind of Christian.
                              No, I'm saying that human rights came out of a Christian culture based largely on the writings of the Christians I mentioned. And why would torture and slaughter be moral wrongs? Just animals doing what animals do.

                              Great! Start by proving the existence of your god. No evidence of god, gives no god, gives no “god given” human rights.


                              Yes, I can see why a writer that espoused religious intolerance, rather than, say, John Locke, who advocated the opposite, would appeal to someone like you.
                              And in your world inalienable rights are no more than a legal fiction. Glad we settled that...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                And why would torture and slaughter be moral wrongs?
                                If only we could ask them, eh. You know, the christians who, to the greater glory of your god, perpetrated those crimes against humanity.

                                And in your world inalienable rights are no more than a legal fiction. Glad we settled that...
                                No, but, depending on where you live, the practicalities of enjoying those rights may well be.
                                When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
                                - Anonymous

                                Comment

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