Originally posted by tabibito
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Free Will and Omniscience
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
How do dead limbs attach themselves to the vine? This is what you are trying to do. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”
John 15:5 (KJV 1900) This means you must be saved, attached to Christ before you can believe or repent.
People who believe can do nothing without Christ - It should be self evident that "nothing" is restricted in sense to producing fruit.
Jesus is talking to believers in this passage - he is talking to people who are already "branches." Nothing in this passage says anything about how a person is grafted in to the vine to become a branch. What it does say is that those who are already branches cannot do anything (produce fruit) apart from the vine.
Before you can rightly say that a person cannot believe or repent without being in Christ, you need to be able to demonstrate that belief and repentance are fruits of the kind that Christ speaks of. Given that Christ said there are people who believe that are not his disciples, you're behind the eight ball from the outset. You cannot demonstrate that believing the gospel and repenting are fruits of the Spirit. You cannot demonstrate that believing the gospel is the same as believing in Christ: they are not in fact one and the same. Your claim that "this means you must be saved ... before you can believe or repent" is nothing more than eisegesis.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Where does John 15:5 say that people can't believe or repent until they are saved? Who is the "ye" being addressed here?
People who believe can do nothing without Christ - It should be self evident that "nothing" is restricted in sense to producing fruit.
Jesus is talking to believers in this passage - he is talking to people who are already "branches." Nothing in this passage says anything about how a person is grafted in to the vine to become a branch. What it does say is that those who are already branches cannot do anything (produce fruit) apart from the vine.
Before you can rightly say that a person cannot believe or repent without being in Christ, you need to be able to demonstrate that belief and repentance are fruits of the kind that Christ speaks of. Given that Christ said there are people who believe that are not his disciples, you're behind the eight ball from the outset. You cannot demonstrate that believing the gospel and repenting are fruits of the Spirit. You cannot demonstrate that believing the gospel is the same as believing in Christ: they are not in fact one and the same. Your claim that "this means you must be saved ... before you can believe or repent" is nothing more than eisegesis.
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I don't think there is a contradiction between free will and omniscience.
{depending on how you understand the terms}
An omniscient God could perfectly know what one of His creatures will freely choose in any particular circumstance. That someone (even God) knows what we will freely choose to do in advance is no constraint on our free choice. We often say things like 'I knew you were going to say that!' with no implication that our (prior) knowledge affected the (subsequent) action of the other person.
{Does this put your thread back on track?}...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostI don't think there is a contradiction between free will and omniscience.
{depending on how you understand the terms}
An omniscient God could perfectly know what one of His creatures will freely choose in any particular circumstance. That someone (even God) knows what we will freely choose to do in advance is no constraint on our free choice. We often say things like 'I knew you were going to say that!' with no implication that our (prior) knowledge affected the (subsequent) action of the other person.
{Does this put your thread back on track?}
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Originally posted by Machinist View PostMan, ya'll done hijacked my fred.I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but what are your thoughts on this subject? How are free will and omniscience not mutually exclusive?
So - near as I can tell - the Bible shows a God who knows all possible futures, and the likelihood of their fulfilment, rather than a certainty associated with just one fixed future.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 2 likes
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
So the creature determines what God will do? This makes the creature god and denies God's sovereignty over creation....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900) = we only respond to God and never act on our own.
works in you [influences the ones who already believe]
(so that you) do desire and do act in accord with his good purpose."
But that would only be acknowledging the fact that Plpn 2:13 does not address the circumstances of unbelievers.Last edited by tabibito; 08-08-2021, 05:54 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Of course, it might be that the scripture means "God
works in you [influences the ones who already believe]
(so that you) do desire and do act in accord with his good purpose."
But that would only be acknowledging the fact that Plpn 2:13 does not address the circumstances of unbelievers.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900) = we only respond to God and never act on our own.
(1) Doesn't address anything I wrote.
(2) Addressed to the Philippian believers (and more broadly, to Christians in general). So you are saying that only Christians have no free will, respond to God and never act on their own. But non-christians do have free will etc. That seems, uh, odd....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
(1) Doesn't address anything I wrote.
(2) Addressed to the Philippian believers (and more broadly, to Christians in general). So you are saying that only Christians have no free will, respond to God and never act on their own. But non-christians do have free will etc. That seems, uh, odd.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
So God fails if your puny will tries to stop Him? Let God be true and every man a liar.Last edited by tabibito; 08-08-2021, 07:19 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Demonstrate that God chooses (in the ordinary course) to impose his will on a person. If he does happen to choose to impose his will, of course, irresistibility would come into play.
Notice he doesn't mention your will. James says you cannot even control your tongue, much less anything that matters.
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