I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but what are your thoughts on this subject? How are free will and omniscience not mutually exclusive?
Announcement
Collapse
Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Free Will and Omniscience
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by Machinist View PostI'm sure this has been discussed here before, but what are your thoughts on this subject? How are free will and omniscience not mutually exclusive?
-
Originally posted by Machinist View PostI'm sure this has been discussed here before, but what are your thoughts on this subject? How are free will and omniscience not mutually exclusive?
Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series gives a fairly accurate account of how prophecy works.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 2 likes
Comment
-
Originally posted by Stoic View Post
I don't believe in omniscience, but I imagine that an omniscient being could know what your free will choice is going to be, in the same way that an ordinary being in the future can know what your free will choice was.
Here's a question: does an omniscient being have free will or is bound by the choices it already knows it will make?."For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
Pretty much my view. An omniscient being would know what I was going to do before I do it but still in no way control what I am going to do. Even if said omniscient being was omnipotent, it won't necessarily have to exert it's power over me but it would still know what I was going to do.
Here's a question: does an omniscient being have free will or is bound by the choices it already knows it will make?.
So assuming he had free will to start with, he's never going to need it again.
- 1 like
Comment
-
Originally posted by Stoic View Post
I don't believe in omniscience, but I imagine that an omniscient being could know what your free will choice is going to be, in the same way that an ordinary being in the future can know what your free will choice was.
I guess an Absolutely Omniscient being would necessarily have to be Absolutely Eternal. That being would necessarily have to be the essence of being and existence itself.Last edited by Machinist; 07-12-2021, 06:06 AM.
Comment
-
I've seen this discussion before elsewhere. It usually boils down to athiests saying that omniscience and free will aren't compatible, and theists saying they are.
If I know (and watch) water in a river running down and emptying into the ocean, I am only an observer. I am not affecting the water or its flow. The atheist will often say my mere knowledge of that flow negates the free will of the water. If I know with certainty where that water is going, it has no option of going anywhere else, no free will. So the question then becomes: Does knowledge equal manipulation? Just because I know something doesn't mean I am manipulating it.
It also has to do with time. In a universe without an omniscient being, Joe Doe lived in 1800 and wrote an all-inclusive autobiography during his lifetime. Did he have free will? Yes. And now I read his autobiography in 2021 and know all of his thoughts and actions. Does Joe Doe still have free will? No, according to atheist argument. My knowledge of Doe's life in minute detail - from my perspective - removes his free will. He was incapable of doing anything else.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Ronson View PostI've seen this discussion before elsewhere. It usually boils down to athiests saying that omniscience and free will aren't compatible, and theists saying they are."For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
Comment
-
Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
I've actually encountered this in Christian preaching. They taught because God is omniscient, we have no free will. I must add a disclaimer that I think the pastor was preaching outside his intellectual capabilities on this topic.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Ronson View Post
Maybe he was a Calvinist?"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
Comment
-
Knowing what someone will do and causing them to do it are two different thing entirely. God knows what you will do because you choose to do it. He doesn't make you do it.
Think of the past. You, a mere human know what other humans have done in the past, correct? Do you know what they did because they chose to do it or because you caused them to do it?
If you had a time machine and could go back to before they did what you already know what they did, would you knowing it before they did it cause them to do it? Or would they do what you know they did because they choose to do it.
If you could go back to November 21, 1964 (the day before JFK was assassinated) you would know that Oswald would shoot Kennedy the next day. Why do you know it? Because that is what Oswald did. Whether you know it in 2021 or go back and know it a day before it happened, your knowledge is dependent on what Oswald freely chose to do. If he chose to shoot JFK's driver instead, then that is what you would know. But he didn't.
God's omniscience is like that. Think of it as a knowledge of the past from the point of view of the very far future. He knows what you will do because that is what you will choose to do. If you choose to eat cheeriios for breakfast tomorrow, he will know that. But if you choose to eat a pop tart tomorrow, that is what he will know.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Think of the past. You, a mere human know what other humans have done in the past, correct? Do you know what they did because they chose to do it or because you caused them to do it?
Perhaps what we're dealing with here is another quantum function.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostKnowing what someone will do and causing them to do it are two different thing entirely. God knows what you will do because you choose to do it. He doesn't make you do it.
Think of the past. You, a mere human know what other humans have done in the past, correct? Do you know what they did because they chose to do it or because you caused them to do it?
If you had a time machine and could go back to before they did what you already know what they did, would you knowing it before they did it cause them to do it? Or would they do what you know they did because they choose to do it.
If you could go back to November 21, 1964 (the day before JFK was assassinated) you would know that Oswald would shoot Kennedy the next day. Why do you know it? Because that is what Oswald did. Whether you know it in 2021 or go back and know it a day before it happened, your knowledge is dependent on what Oswald freely chose to do. If he chose to shoot JFK's driver instead, then that is what you would know. But he didn't.
God's omniscience is like that. Think of it as a knowledge of the past from the point of view of the very far future. He knows what you will do because that is what you will choose to do. If you choose to eat cheeriios for breakfast tomorrow, he will know that. But if you choose to eat a pop tart tomorrow, that is what he will know.
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
|
161 responses
514 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by shunyadragon
Yesterday, 05:44 PM
|
||
Started by seer, 02-15-2024, 11:24 AM
|
88 responses
354 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by shunyadragon
03-01-2024, 09:27 AM
|
||
Started by Diogenes, 01-22-2024, 07:37 PM
|
21 responses
133 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by shunyadragon
03-25-2024, 10:59 PM
|
Comment