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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Free Will and Omniscience

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  • Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

    Scripture makes it clear to whom God will extend mercy.

    John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    God does not decide who will believe

    Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

      Scripture makes it clear to whom God will extend mercy.

      John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

      God does not decide who will believe

      Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
      “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 (KJV 1900)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 (KJV 1900)
        Really?

        Acts 13:48 ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ κυρίου καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

        Can you think of a reason why επιστευσαν (they believed) might have been moved from the middle of the sentence to the end? reversing the positions of "they believed" and "had been appointed to life eternal."?
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          Really?

          Acts 13:48 ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ κυρίου καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

          Can you think of a reason why επιστευσαν (they believed) might have been moved from the middle of the sentence to the end? reversing the positions of "they believed" and "had been appointed to life eternal."?
          Because Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith, a work of the flesh such as you preach, cannot save, it can only deceive.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

            Because Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith, a work of the flesh such as you preach, cannot save, it can only deceive.
            Your wholly predictable comment does not address the question.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Your wholly predictable comment does not address the question.
              If Jesus is the author and finisher of a person's faith, but you think you are, it can only mean you have never experienced Him in this capacity.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                Because Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith, a work of the flesh such as you preach, cannot save, it can only deceive.
                How is it that you can cite Hebrews 12:2 and ignore both the explicit meaning and the implications of Hebrews 12:1?
                Hebrews 12:1 let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us
                Who lays sin aside?
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                  Did you know God grafted gentile believers into Isreal when he removed the unbelievers? So all applies to us now.
                  No Dave, all scripture is not written to you or us. Most of all of Paul's Epistles are written to the specific Church they are addressed to, to address the issues that particular church was experiening. Rule number one in exegesis: 1. Scripture verses can NEVER mean something to us that it did not mean to the original recipients. Yes, gentiles are grafted in, and that's why Romans 9 is there in the first place. Jewish recipients were asking Paul, has God's word (promise) to Israel failed? To the Jewish believers, the logical conlusion of Paul's preaching that God had opened to the gentiles the ability to become children of God, meant God had abandoned Israel entirely and voided his covenant with them. Roman's 9 is Paul's explanation that God has always retained the right to call whomever he wanted as "His People". Roman's 9 is written specifically to Jewish believers justifying how and why God has grafted us in. It has nothing to do withi individual election, it has everything to do with corporate election. You need to learn to read in whole books, and learn what context truly means, not cherry picking specific verses because you believe it supports your view.
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    How is it that you can cite Hebrews 12:2 and ignore both the explicit meaning and the implications of Hebrews 12:1?
                    Hebrews 12:1 let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us
                    Who lays sin aside?
                    I lay sin aside through the power of the Holy Spirit. You think you can cause the flesh to stop sinning. But even your beliefs are sins if not caused by the Holy Spirit.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                      No Dave, all scripture is not written to you or us. Most of all of Paul's Epistles are written to the specific Church they are addressed to, to address the issues that particular church was experiening. Rule number one in exegesis: 1. Scripture verses can NEVER mean something to us that it did not mean to the original recipients. Yes, gentiles are grafted in, and that's why Romans 9 is there in the first place. Jewish recipients were asking Paul, has God's word (promise) to Israel failed? To the Jewish believers, the logical conlusion of Paul's preaching that God had opened to the gentiles the ability to become children of God, meant God had abandoned Israel entirely and voided his covenant with them. Roman's 9 is Paul's explanation that God has always retained the right to call whomever he wanted as "His People". Roman's 9 is written specifically to Jewish believers justifying how and why God has grafted us in. It has nothing to do withi individual election, it has everything to do with corporate election. You need to learn to read in whole books, and learn what context truly means, not cherry picking specific verses because you believe it supports your view.
                      So you threw away your bible? It's not addressed to you?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        I lay sin aside through the power of the Holy Spirit. You think you can cause the flesh to stop sinning. But even your beliefs are sins if not caused by the Holy Spirit.
                        So you have jumped to the conclusion that I believe a person can purify himself without the aegis of the Holy Spirit? You stood in judgment over me without bothering to check the most basic information?

                        But no - "even your beliefs are sins if not caused by the Holy Spirit" - shows that your assessment of scripture is no more valid than your assessment of my statements.
                        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                          So you threw away your bible? It's not addressed to you?
                          . No, I simply learned how to read it properly. I highly recommend it. The fact that it's not addressed to us in the 21st century doesn't mean we throw it out...this all or nothing mentality would be the next thing you need to shed. Scripture was written to specific peoples at specific times. That doesn't mean we can't understand what those meanings are and apply them to our lives...if that understanding and application are properly done. Again, Roman's wasn't written to you to tell you that you are individually chosen of God to election, it's to tell (first the original recipients) then you that God has always chosen as a people, whom he Chooses, it's his perogative. How can we know this? When reading scripture, the best way to determine what that passage means is too look at the writers own summary of his point. Paul clearly tells us what he means in Romans 9 starting summing up his point in vs. 24, and then tells us exactly what he's getting at in vs. 30 - 33.
                          Again, pointing out to the Jewish readers that he has called us (Jews) but also gentile believers. Again, corporate election. God's chosen people is made up of both Jewish and gentile believers so, (Jews, get over yourselves, you had your chance and blew it). Reading individual election in Rom 9 directly opposes everything Paul writes.
                          Last edited by Littlejoe; 08-02-2021, 09:18 AM.
                          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            So you have jumped to the conclusion that I believe a person can purify himself without the aegis of the Holy Spirit? You stood in judgment over me without bothering to check the most basic information?

                            But no - "even your beliefs are sins if not caused by the Holy Spirit" - shows that your assessment of scripture is no more valid than your assessment of my statements.
                            You do not share the same experience I have. So I can only assume the worst.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              You do not share the same experience I have. So I can only assume the worst.
                              So, your faith is based on your emotions and experience rather than the Word of God? That explains a lot.
                              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                                So, your faith is based on your emotions and experience rather than the Word of God? That explains a lot.
                                If you ever experience salvation the way I do, the Holy Spirit causes me to believe because of His presence in my heart.

                                Comment

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