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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Free Will and Omniscience

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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    I stand corrected. My first reading was right after all, and it would seem that Wesley did speak of the pope as the antichrist into the bargain. Of course, Wesley did begin as an Anglican, so I am more surprised than I have a right to be, I guess.



    Just goes to show, even the best of Church leaders can get some things wrong. Calvin and to a lesser extent Luther exempt of course - anyone condemned by Calvin was usually well attested; same with Luther, to a lesser extent.


    I'll bet you are under Antichrist's control today, not knowing how. He still sits in the Temple of God, Christendom, through the false doctrines that permeate Evangelicalism and your mind.

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    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      I have memories of conflicting opinions about this one. It may be that antichrist comments have been expunged in recent times, and on a second reading, it seems that I misread the post by Dave L about Methodists and Baptists. Re-reading indicates that Methodists and Baptists were lumped in with Rome as joint antichrists.

      Whether or not Rome was listed as antichrist in the creeds themselves, Rome and any other group who disagreed with a leader's precepts were termed antichrist by that leaders group. The "genealogy" and teachings of the Baptists would have drawn the ire of both Luther and Calvin, and may have been dubbed antichrist in some early protestant creeds. The Methodist's would have too, had the Wesley brothers had been active in Calvin and Luther's time. Why, until about ten years after Wesley's death, the Methodists even ordained women - more than enough all by itself to have earned condemnation in that period of history.

      What DaveL doesn't seem to realise is that "antichrist" was a term for any group who contradicted the precepts of their accusers. THE antichrist - Rome by some - was not usually part of the accusation
      Antichrist is a Biblical term that identifies Paul's "man of sin".

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      • 1 John 2:17 18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          1 John 2:17 18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
          Keep studying the issue. Are you under Antichrist's control through the false doctrines he preaches? Many are.

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          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

            Keep studying the issue. Are you under Antichrist's control through the false doctrines he preaches? Many are.
            Those people can't stop sinning. Try again.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Those people can't stop sinning. Try again.
              How many of his doctrines can you spot in your church or in any church?

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              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post
                How many of his doctrines can you spot in your church or in any church?
                You seem to think that you are qualified, despite being without the benefit of knowing the gospel, to make such assessments.
                How does your fascination with the wrongs of others address the issue of Paul's statement that he told people everywhere to repent and producing works in keeping with repentance?

                Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance
                .
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  You seem to think that you are qualified, despite being without the benefit of knowing the gospel, to make such assessments.
                  How does your fascination with the wrongs of others address the issue of Paul's statement that he told people everywhere to repent and producing works in keeping with repentance?

                  Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance
                  .
                  What must I do to be saved?

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                  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                    What must I do to be saved?
                    Mark 16:15 He [Jesus] said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

                    The gospel doesn't reflect your teachings - which one is wrong?

                    Now - do you want to continue deflecting with irrelevancies?

                    Or do you want to address the matter of what Paul actually did preach?
                    Last edited by tabibito; 08-10-2021, 07:00 AM.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Mark 16:15 He [Jesus] said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

                      The gospel doesn't reflect your teachings - which one is wrong?

                      Now - do you want to continue deflecting with irrelevancies?

                      Or do you want to address the matter of what Paul actually did preach?
                      How does it reflect your teachings? What must I do to be saved?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        How does it reflect your teachings? What must I do to be saved?
                        A claim to believe in Christ is true ONLY if the person making the claim believes what Christ has said.

                        You can say "believe" all you want - without answering "believe what?" you have said nothing.

                        Does baptism wash sins away? Is that part of the answer to "believe what?"
                        Did Paul say "if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live?" Is that part of believe what?
                        Did Jesus say "make disciples of all nations, teaching them to do all that I have commanded you?" Is that part of believe what? (note that "making disciples and teaching them to do" are among the things that Jesus commanded.)

                        A claim to believe in Christ is true ONLY if the person making the claim believes what Christ has said.

                        So back to the issue: Did Paul teach that people should repent and produce deeds in keeping with repentance?
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          A claim to believe in Christ is true ONLY if the person making the claim believes what Christ has said.

                          You can say "believe" all you want - without answering "believe what?" you have said nothing.

                          Does baptism wash sins away? Is that part of the answer to "believe what?"
                          Did Paul say "if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live?" Is that part of believe what?
                          Did Jesus say "make disciples of all nations, teaching them to do all that I have commanded you?" Is that part of believe what? (note that "making disciples and teaching them to do" are among the things that Jesus commanded.)

                          A claim to believe in Christ is true ONLY if the person making the claim believes what Christ has said.

                          So back to the issue: Did Paul teach that people should repent and produce deeds in keeping with repentance?
                          So you do not know what the gospel is? You cannot tell people how God saves them? My my......

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                          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                            So you do not know what the gospel is? You cannot tell people how God saves them? My my......
                            Whether or not I know the gospel - you are in no wise qualified to determine. But you have demonstrated your own refusal to believe in Christ beyond any possible doubt.
                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Whether or not I know the gospel - you are in no wise qualified to determine. But you have demonstrated your own refusal to believe in Christ beyond any possible doubt.
                              I'll bet you believe in free will, a doctrine of Antichrist the whole of Catholicism is based on.....

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                                I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but what are your thoughts on this subject? How are free will and omniscience not mutually exclusive?
                                I think that, to discuss that issue, one needs a number of models for discussing God and man, and their modes of action.

                                I don't think it is a problem. IMO, we see it as a problem because of the manner in which our intellects, by which we perceive what we know, ordinarily operate.

                                An act of human cognition is complicated, by a number of factors:

                                that we are creatures, and therefore, finite
                                that we are human beings, not God and not His holy angels
                                that we are damaged by sin
                                that we live in time, and not in eternity
                                that our immortal and spiritual souls, by which we are capable of acts of cognition, are united to material bodies, which, as yet, are not perfectly sanctified and perfected
                                that our manner of cognition is not by a single eternal act of cognition of all creation (as in God) but through separated concepts and in dependence on the body.

                                Basically, our capacity to know, our means of knowing, and the way in which we deal with what we come to know, depends on what we are, on our capacity for seeing, on what we have been, & on a host of such details. So all of us see very incompletely - to see Christ more nearly fully, and His ways more nearly fully, all His Body together is needed.

                                We, with our limited, slow, hazy, short-sighted, incomplete, broken-up way of seeing, may not be capable of uniting in a single act of intellectual seeing the two realities of

                                (1) God's Infinite Freedom & other Attributes;

                                (2) the created & contingent reality of finite yet real human freedom.

                                In this world, there are analogies that we can chew over in our intellects. These analogies can provide a variety of models, to help us to see this subject less inaccurately & more nearly adequately. IOW, in our present state in this world, we do not function as we are meant to - so how we know God, and creatures, including ourselves, is impaired.

                                Because we are beings that image God, our finite human freedom is a created participation in the Limitless, Super-abundant, Freedom of God. We owe all our being to God, all and any good in us - so all our freedom is God's gift. Whether we obediently live in a way that acknowledges that we have no good except from God, depends, in some manner, on our decision, as well as on God first of all. If we decide to turn away from God, God upholds us in existence and action; but the decision to turn away, is ours. We become less fully human in consequence, less free, more turned in on self, but we still remain human beings. To sin results in a kind of paralysis, whereas perfect and total slavery to God, is perfect freedom.

                                I suspect that human free will is a consequence of God's Omniscience, an invention flowing from God's Freedom & other Attributes. And I think that a vital clue is, that God's Agape-Love is what contains and illuminates all creation. God's Love gives existence, life, stability, reality, individuality, fruitfulness, capacity for growth and development, truth, direction, righteousness, understanding, freedom, & all other blessings & graces, to creatures. Basically, God's Love is immeasurably Good for creatures. The Infinite Goodness/Love of God the Creator, does not exclude or stomp on or crush or bar or exclude creatures or their activity; it is what makes them possible, actual, real, active, individual & free.

                                God's Freedom, and finite creaturely freedom, are not a mountain and a pebble trying to occupy the same little spot in space-time. Our pebbly little freedom can exist through & from & and within God's Incomprehensible & Divinely Great Freedom, because both are spiritual qualities, & therefore have no material dimensions, any more than God has.

                                Every detail of the story of each one of us, from beginning to end, is seen by God. And unlike us, God loves all that He has created; it is by responding, in the right way, to God's Love, that creatures become more truly themselves. And the more fully present in God they become, the more they become God-like - not in the serpent's way, through distrust & disobedience & self-will, which breaks communion with God & neighbour; but in God's way, by which, through grace, we become "partakers in the Divine Nature", through adoption as God's beloved children in Christ.



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