Free Will and Omniscience

[Dave L]

God's grace brings a person into Christ, grants the ability to become holy, removes a person's sin, and the penalty for past sins.
I see nothing in scripture to indicate that God's grace determines which denomination(s) a person might belong to.

But of course, a person has to know the gospel before being able to understand that God isn't partisan.

Are Jehovah's witnesses saved? Do they worship an idol in Christ's name?

[tabibito]

Are Jehovah's witnesses saved? Do they worship an idol in Christ's name?

I believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are deny that Jesus is God. If that is the case, no.

[Dave L]

I believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are deny that Jesus is God. If that is the case, no.

Most cults do the same. They worship Idols in Christ's name. Anti Christ = in place of Christ. The pope even calls himself by that name, the vicar of Christ.

[tabibito]

Most cults do the same. They worship Idols in Christ's name. Anti Christ = in place of Christ. The pope even calls himself by that name, the vicar of Christ.

The same might be said about people who teach that Christ does not set a person free from the power of sin, so that the person can be righteous/pure/holy.

[Dave L]

The same might be said about people who teach that Christ does not set a person free from the power of sin, so that the person can be righteous/pure/holy.

Who might say something like this?

[Cerebrum123]

I am thankful that I am not a protestant then.

I'm one, and it's certainly news to me.

[Dave L]

I'm one, and it's certainly news to me.

read a little and learn a lot. All of the protestant creeds named the papacy the Antichrist, along with with Baptists and Methodists. But the Jesuits played many for suckers with their Dispensationalism that prevails today.

[Cerebrum123]

read a little and learn a lot. All of the protestant creeds named the papacy the Antichrist, along with with Baptists and Methodists. But the Jesuits played many for suckers with their Dispensationalism that prevails today.

If it's so ubiquitous then you should be able to give examples of where these creeds declare the papacy to be the Antichrist.

[tabibito]

I'm one, and it's certainly news to me.

I think it would be news to a great number of protestants. I'll have to check into whether Wesley taught anything like that too, though it seems unlikely that he would have.

[Cerebrum123]

I think it would be news to a great number of protestants. I'll have to check into whether Wesley taught anything like that too, though it seems unlikely that he would have.

I know that in the Reformation that the idea became popular with certain people, and still is with some. However, having looked at varying creeds I never saw any that said anything remotely like "Must believe the Pope is the Antichrist" on the list of things you needed to believe to be considered a protestant.

[Dave L]

I think it would be news to a great number of protestants. I'll have to check into whether Wesley taught anything like that too, though it seems unlikely that he would have.

“The Antichrist and the Reformation”

During the time of the Reformation and following, Christians in every Anabaptist, English-Baptist, Lutheran or Protestant and Reformed Church, knew the Papacy was the Antichrist. This fact remains embedded in the books and creeds of Christendom to this day. Several examples follow;


From The Westminster Confession which also with some adjustments became the 1^st and 2^nd London Baptist Confessions.
Chapter XXV
Of the Church

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof. but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.

And from the preface to the Canons of Dort;
For this Church being by God’s mighty hand set free from the tyranny of the Romish Antichrist, & from the fearful idolatry of Popery.....
Martin Luther declared, “We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist.” (Aug. 18, 1520). According to The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by LeRoy Froom. Vol. 2., pg. 121.

I shall briefly show that (Paul’s words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy.” According to Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin.

John Knox concluded that the Papacy was “the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” The Zurich Letters, by John Knox, pg. 199.
“Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons.” (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

“the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2). Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America):” The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.

Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian): “The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them.” According to The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom’s book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.
John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist): Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, by John Wesley, pg. 110.

A Great Cloud of Witnesses: “Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently Spurgeon, Bishop J.C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist.” According to All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen. Dorchestor House Publications, p. 205. 1991.

[Dave L]

If it's so ubiquitous then you should be able to give examples of where these creeds declare the papacy to be the Antichrist.

“The Antichrist and the Reformation”

During the time of the Reformation and following, Christians in every Anabaptist, English-Baptist, Lutheran or Protestant and Reformed Church, knew the Papacy was the Antichrist. This fact remains embedded in the books and creeds of Christendom to this day. Several examples follow;


From The Westminster Confession which also with some adjustments became the 1^st and 2^nd London Baptist Confessions.
Chapter XXV
Of the Church

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof. but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.
And from the preface to the Canons of Dort;

For this Church being by God’s mighty hand set free from the tyranny of the Romish Antichrist, & from the fearful idolatry of Popery.....
Martin Luther declared, “We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist.” (Aug. 18, 1520). According to The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by LeRoy Froom. Vol. 2., pg. 121.

I shall briefly show that (Paul’s words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy.” According to Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin.

John Knox concluded that the Papacy was “the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” The Zurich Letters, by John Knox, pg. 199.
“Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons.” (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

“the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2). Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America):” The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.

Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian): “The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them.” According to The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom’s book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist): Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, by John Wesley, pg. 110.

A Great Cloud of Witnesses: “Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently Spurgeon, Bishop J.C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist.” According to All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen. Dorchestor House Publications, p. 205. 1991.

[tabibito]

I know that in the Reformation that the idea became popular with certain people, and still is with some. However, having looked at varying creeds I never saw any that said anything remotely like "Must believe the Pope is the Antichrist" on the list of things you needed to believe to be considered a protestant.

I have memories of conflicting opinions about this one. It may be that antichrist comments have been expunged in recent times, and on a second reading, it seems that I misread the post by Dave L about Methodists and Baptists. Re-reading indicates that Methodists and Baptists were lumped in with Rome as joint antichrists.

Whether or not Rome was listed as antichrist in the creeds themselves, Rome and any other group who disagreed with a leader's precepts were termed antichrist by that leaders group. The "genealogy" and teachings of the Baptists would have drawn the ire of both Luther and Calvin, and may have been dubbed antichrist in some early protestant creeds. The Methodist's would have too, had the Wesley brothers had been active in Calvin and Luther's time. Why, until about ten years after Wesley's death, the Methodists even ordained women - more than enough all by itself to have earned condemnation in that period of history.

What DaveL doesn't seem to realise is that "antichrist" was a term for any group who contradicted the precepts of their accusers. THE antichrist - Rome by some - was not usually part of the accusation

[tabibito]

I stand corrected. My first reading was right after all, and it would seem that Wesley did speak of the pope as the antichrist into the bargain. Of course, Wesley did begin as an Anglican, so I am more surprised than I have a right to be, I guess.

“The Antichrist and the Reformation”



A Great Cloud of Witnesses: “Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently Spurgeon, Bishop J.C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist.” According to All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen. Dorchestor House Publications, p. 205. 1991.

Just goes to show, even the best of Church leaders can get some things wrong. Calvin and to a lesser extent Luther exempt of course - anyone condemned by Calvin was usually well attested; same with Luther, to a lesser extent.

[tabibito]

So: run back through Paul's statement - as cited by Luke - that Paul had preached everywhere that people should repent and produce works in keeping with repentance. Read the text carefully, and determine whether Paul is talking about the fruits of the Holy Spirit.