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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Free Will and Omniscience

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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    You haven't answered the questions yet. What do the scriptures say about your earlier objections?
    Quote one at a time, keep it brief, and I will answer.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      How do dead limbs attach themselves to the vine? This is what you are trying to do. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

      John 15:5 (KJV 1900) This means you must be saved, attached to Christ before you can believe or repent.
      Where does John 15:5 say that people can't believe or repent until they are saved? Who is the "ye" being addressed here?

      People who believe can do nothing without Christ - It should be self evident that "nothing" is restricted in sense to producing fruit.
      Jesus is talking to believers in this passage - he is talking to people who are already "branches." Nothing in this passage says anything about how a person is grafted in to the vine to become a branch. What it does say is that those who are already branches cannot do anything (produce fruit) apart from the vine.
      Before you can rightly say that a person cannot believe or repent without being in Christ, you need to be able to demonstrate that belief and repentance are fruits of the kind that Christ speaks of. Given that Christ said there are people who believe that are not his disciples, you're behind the eight ball from the outset. You cannot demonstrate that believing the gospel and repenting are fruits of the Spirit. You cannot demonstrate that believing the gospel is the same as believing in Christ: they are not in fact one and the same. Your claim that "this means you must be saved ... before you can believe or repent" is nothing more than eisegesis.

      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post




        Where does John 15:5 say that people can't believe or repent until they are saved? Who is the "ye" being addressed here?

        People who believe can do nothing without Christ - It should be self evident that "nothing" is restricted in sense to producing fruit.
        Jesus is talking to believers in this passage - he is talking to people who are already "branches." Nothing in this passage says anything about how a person is grafted in to the vine to become a branch. What it does say is that those who are already branches cannot do anything (produce fruit) apart from the vine.
        Before you can rightly say that a person cannot believe or repent without being in Christ, you need to be able to demonstrate that belief and repentance are fruits of the kind that Christ speaks of. Given that Christ said there are people who believe that are not his disciples, you're behind the eight ball from the outset. You cannot demonstrate that believing the gospel and repenting are fruits of the Spirit. You cannot demonstrate that believing the gospel is the same as believing in Christ: they are not in fact one and the same. Your claim that "this means you must be saved ... before you can believe or repent" is nothing more than eisegesis.
        You are born spiritually dead and cannot discern the true Christ or believe in Him. Instead, you will hate any mention of the true Christ. So He must pay for your sins so He can justly attach you, a dead branch to Himself, the true vine. At this point, He becomes the author and finisher of your faith through the New Birth. Left to yourself, you will continue hating any mention of the true God, just as the Pharisees did. And you will choose an idol in Christ's name, just as the Pharisees did. And challenge anyone speaking the truth that you cannot grasp.

        Comment


        • Man, ya'll done hijacked my fred.

          Comment


          • I don't think there is a contradiction between free will and omniscience.

            {depending on how you understand the terms}

            An omniscient God could perfectly know what one of His creatures will freely choose in any particular circumstance. That someone (even God) knows what we will freely choose to do in advance is no constraint on our free choice. We often say things like 'I knew you were going to say that!' with no implication that our (prior) knowledge affected the (subsequent) action of the other person.

            {Does this put your thread back on track?}
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
              I don't think there is a contradiction between free will and omniscience.

              {depending on how you understand the terms}

              An omniscient God could perfectly know what one of His creatures will freely choose in any particular circumstance. That someone (even God) knows what we will freely choose to do in advance is no constraint on our free choice. We often say things like 'I knew you were going to say that!' with no implication that our (prior) knowledge affected the (subsequent) action of the other person.

              {Does this put your thread back on track?}
              So the creature determines what God will do? This makes the creature god and denies God's sovereignty over creation.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                Man, ya'll done hijacked my fred.
                I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but what are your thoughts on this subject? How are free will and omniscience not mutually exclusive?
                It would depend on what was meant by "omniscience." The scriptural thrust makes it "knowing all that can be known," which leaves open whether there are things that are unknowable. Free will would not exist in a reality where the future exists. If the future doesn't already exist, then it is knowable as a balance of probabilities rather than as a done deal. The reality indicated by the Bible is one where balance of probabilities is calculable.

                So - near as I can tell - the Bible shows a God who knows all possible futures, and the likelihood of their fulfilment, rather than a certainty associated with just one fixed future.
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                  So the creature determines what God will do? This makes the creature god and denies God's sovereignty over creation.
                  Uh, no. I don't see how you got that from what I posted. Can you explain further?
                  ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post

                    Uh, no. I don't see how you got that from what I posted. Can you explain further?
                    “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900) = we only respond to God and never act on our own.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                      “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900) = we only respond to God and never act on our own.
                      Of course, it might be that the scripture means "God
                      works in you [influences the ones who already believe]
                      (so that you) do desire and do act in accord with his good purpose."

                      But that would only be acknowledging the fact that Plpn 2:13 does not address the circumstances of unbelievers.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 08-08-2021, 05:54 AM.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        Of course, it might be that the scripture means "God
                        works in you [influences the ones who already believe]
                        (so that you) do desire and do act in accord with his good purpose."

                        But that would only be acknowledging the fact that Plpn 2:13 does not address the circumstances of unbelievers.
                        So God fails if your puny will tries to stop Him? Let God be true and every man a liar.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                          “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900) = we only respond to God and never act on our own.

                          (1) Doesn't address anything I wrote.


                          (2) Addressed to the Philippian believers (and more broadly, to Christians in general). So you are saying that only Christians have no free will, respond to God and never act on their own. But non-christians do have free will etc. That seems, uh, odd.
                          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post


                            (1) Doesn't address anything I wrote.


                            (2) Addressed to the Philippian believers (and more broadly, to Christians in general). So you are saying that only Christians have no free will, respond to God and never act on their own. But non-christians do have free will etc. That seems, uh, odd.
                            It only addresses what you want to hear = nothing.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              So God fails if your puny will tries to stop Him? Let God be true and every man a liar.
                              Demonstrate that God chooses (in the ordinary course) to impose his will on a person. If he does happen to choose to impose his will, of course, irresistibility would come into play.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 08-08-2021, 07:19 AM.
                              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                Demonstrate that God chooses (in the ordinary course) to impose his will on a person. If he does happen to choose to impose his will, of course, irresistibility would come into play.
                                “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” Ephesians 1:11 (KJV 1900)

                                Notice he doesn't mention your will. James says you cannot even control your tongue, much less anything that matters.

                                Comment

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