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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Free Will and Omniscience

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  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    If you ever experience salvation the way I do, the Holy Spirit causes me to believe because of His presence in my heart.
    Flatly - the Holy Spirit will never cause anyone to believe what you do.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Flatly - the Holy Spirit will never cause anyone to believe what you do.
      Like I say, we do not follow the same Christ.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        Like I say, we do not follow the same Christ.
        True, we believe in the Christ of the Scriptures, not one of our emotions and experiences. You believe in a Christ made up of whole cloth. It's probably why you are labeled as Unorthodox.

        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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        • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
          True, we believe in the Christ of the Scriptures, not one of our emotions and experiences. You believe in a Christ made up of whole cloth. It's probably why you are labeled as Unorthodox.
          Everyone says the same. But only a few are saved.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

            Everyone says the same. But only a few are saved.
            The option to be saved is available to you, should you choose to avail yourself of the opportunity.

            We are saved by grace, and by faith, and by the gospel, and by Christ's sacrifice, and by a number of other things.

            None of those goes beyond telling us the means. The processes by which we are saved are declared with no less clarity.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              The option to be saved is available to you, should you choose to avail yourself of the opportunity.

              We are saved by grace, and by faith, and by the gospel, and by Christ's sacrifice, and by a number of other things.

              None of those goes beyond telling us the means. The processes by which we are saved are declared with no less clarity.
              God saves whom he will. You might be deceived and lost if you think you saved yourself.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                God saves whom he will. You might be deceived and lost if you think you saved yourself.
                No-one saves himself. No-one gets saved without responding in a way that makes salvation possible.



                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  No-one saves himself. No-one gets saved without responding in a way that makes salvation possible.


                  You think God places the ball in your court and that you must respond to be saved.

                  Comment


                  • Mark 8:35 "whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it."

                    God saves whom he will.
                    Do you imagine that the statement means more than "God doesn't answer to anyone for his decisions"? He declares the basis for what he decides, and that is in no wise an arbitrary decision made before creation.

                    Who does God save? What are those people's attributes? Hint: it doesn't rely on what those people did in the past.
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Mark 8:35 "whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it."



                      Do you imagine that the statement means more than "God doesn't answer to anyone for his decisions"? He declares the basis for what he decides, and that is in no wise an arbitrary decision made before creation.

                      Who does God save? What are those people's attributes? Hint: it doesn't rely on what those people did in the past.
                      “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” John 15:5 (KJV 1900)

                      You have to be saved before you can believe and do good.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” John 15:5 (KJV 1900)
                        What do you imagine that "abide in me" means?

                        You have to be saved before you can believe and do good.
                        Strange that Peter should have said, "Believe and be baptised and you will be saved." Did he get it wrong?
                        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          What do you imagine that "abide in me" means?



                          Strange that Peter should have said, "Believe and be baptised and you will be saved." Did he get it wrong?
                          He did not say that. These people were already saved or they would not have believed enough to ask for directions. They were Born-Again Jews entering the New Covenant.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post
                            He did not say that. These people were already saved or they would not have believed enough to ask for directions. They were Born-Again Jews entering the New Covenant.
                            You are right - It wasn't Peter. Jesus said it
                            Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

                            Note: even baptism fails to hold salvation unless the person continues in belief.

                            What results in salvation?
                            if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
                            10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


                            Sadly for your case, confessing is something that the believer must do.


                            And then there is the matter of getting saved by hearing the word:
                            Acts 11:13he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here;
                            14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.

                            That tells us one of the things that save, but how does it save? What process is involved? How does preaching actually work to produce salvation?
                            1Cor 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
                            2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word
                            which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

                            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              You are right - It wasn't Peter. Jesus said it
                              Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

                              Note: even baptism fails to hold salvation unless the person continues in belief.

                              What results in salvation?
                              if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
                              10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


                              Sadly for your case, confessing is something that the believer must do.


                              And then there is the matter of getting saved by hearing the word:
                              Acts 11:13he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here;
                              14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.

                              That tells us one of the things that save, but how does it save? What process is involved? How does preaching actually work to produce salvation?
                              1Cor 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
                              2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word
                              which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
                              How do dead limbs attach themselves to the vine? This is what you are trying to do. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” John 15:5 (KJV 1900) This means you must be saved, attached to Christ before you can believe or repent.

                              Comment


                              • You haven't answered the questions yet. What do the scriptures say about your earlier objections?
                                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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