Hypostatic Quaternity

[Cow Poke]

Which was why I noted that the core belief constituted the "basic, essential, minimal requirements"

I had a guy once who was a very solid guy, but he believed in speaking in tongues as an essential gift.
We disagreed, but he was a great candidate for helping to lead our college ministry.

I was really struggling with that, whether that was too big a problem for me to overcome, so I put it to prayer.

Next day he stopped in and said, "I've been thinking about any differences you and I might have theologically, and I think the only place we differ is on tongues. MORE important to me is submission of the Church to pastor leadership, so you have my word that I will NEVER teach or express beliefs that would be contrary to your teaching as pastor, and will ALWAYS subject myself to your leadership as long as I'm here".

I was amazed, over the next 6 years, how well we worked together, and the 'tongues issue' never became a problem. As a matter of fact, he really seemed to come around to the point that the gifts are to be distributed as the Holy Spirit wishes, and we have no right to "claim" a particular gift as "ours".

[Machinist]

Next day he stopped in and said, "I've been thinking about any differences you and I might have theologically, and I think the only place we differ is on tongues. MORE important to me is submission of the Church to pastor leadership, so you have my word that I will NEVER teach or express beliefs that would be contrary to your teaching as pastor, and will ALWAYS subject myself to your leadership as long as I'm here".

.

I try to live this.

[Machinist]

The best way is to be humble and honest about everything and be open to seeing the truth. I'm not sure if that truth will come to all though. God weighs the heart, and He should know if your heart was really open to seeing the truth. There are many view points expressed here on this forum, and all the major posters here put forth solid arguments yet still completely disagree. Are some just not getting it because of Pride? Is Pride blinding their eyes so that they may not see the correct theology? There seems to be an assumption that if anyone truly sought truth, then they would arrive at a particular doctrine and theology, and if they don't then they weren't truly open to seeing the truth. I'm not so sure that that is true in every case.

[Cow Poke]

I try to live this.

When I've been assistant pastor or youth pastor, that was my goal -- and if we ever came to a point where we could not agree, I would plan to leave in an adult manner - not causing trouble.

[Machinist]

When I've been assistant pastor or youth pastor, that was my goal -- and if we ever came to a point where we could not agree, I would plan to leave in an adult manner - not causing trouble.

I go to a PCA church which I believe they are fundamentally Calvinist. They have teachings there that I am not so sure I agree with. But i've met some really nice people, and I really like the pastors insightful sermons.

[Machinist]

Yet Jesus body contained two natures.

That suggests the apocryphal work the Gospel of Nicodemus with its exciting account of the descent into hell.

1.) I guess the Flesh part was the part that died? The human part. Obviously the Spirit part didn't die cause God can't die. It was the Son and the Son was the Flesh part. That was the Sacrifice. I don't think any of us know what exactly our Spirit or Soul really is anyway. I can see how God could have dwelled inside a Flesh body, then that body die and the Spirit go elsewhere.

2.) I always heard he went to Hell.

3.) Which brings another question here. How many Spirits does God have anyway. I'm not really asking you in particular this, but God's Spirit seems like it's everywhere all at once...at this revival, at this Church, at this location in Communist China, etc. etc.

4.) And when We say God's Spirit, God IS a Spirit. It doesn't make sense to say the Spirit's Spirit.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I've always thought calling Mary the Theotokos odd as Christotokos is much more applicable.

The whole thing when looked at dispassionately is a nonsense.

However, with that opinion and if you were a figure within the court you may well have been subjected to Cyril of Alexandria's bribery to persuade you to agree to depose Nestorius, the bishop of Constantinople. Cyril's materialistic desires for his city's, and by definition his own, supremacy were as much a factor as any theological position he may have held.

However, given my avatar perhaps I am a little biased!

I've never been comfortable with Marian devotion.

Mother goddess worship has a long history, particularly in Egypt, where the Marian cult was most prominent in the early centuries of Christianity. .

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

1.) I guess the Flesh part was the part that died? The human part. Obviously the Spirit part didn't die cause God can't die. It was the Son and the Son was the Flesh part. That was the Sacrifice. I don't think any of us know what exactly our Spirit or Soul really is anyway. I can see how God could have dwelled inside a Flesh body, then that body die and the Spirit go elsewhere.

The question is how and where?

2.) I always heard he went to Hell.

For what purpose?

3.) Which brings another question here. How many Spirits does God have anyway.

Ah well now....

[Diogenes]

The whole thing when looked at dispassionately is a nonsense.

However, with that opinion and if you were a figure within the court you may well have been subjected to Cyril of Alexandria's bribery to persuade you to agree to depose Nestorius, the bishop of Constantinople. Cyril's materialistic desires for his city's, and by definition his own, supremacy were as much a factor as any theological position he may have held.

Nestorius, if I remember, favoured Christotokos and advocated two natures in a prosopic union. I'm not all convinced his prosopic union is functionally different than the Hypostatic Union. I doubt I would have ousted him due to a bribe.

However, given my avatar perhaps I am a little biased!

Given that the modern narrative of Hypatia is myth, I'm not surprised.

Mother goddess worship has a long history, particularly in Egypt, where the Marian cult was most prominent in the early centuries of Christianity. .

While it's always fun to "blame the pagans" for Christian practices, I doubt Marian nonsense is necessarily rooted in mother goddess worship.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Nestorius, if I remember, favoured Christotokos

As I understand it Nestorius expressed concern for the title Theotokos for the Virgin, considering that this title denied the human nature of the Christ and would have preferred the term Anthropotokos but was prepared to compromise on Christotokos given that the human Jesus was born and suffered and died even though he was divine logos as well. In his opinion describing Mary as Theotokos risked denying the humanity of Jesus and therefore potential heresy, which was somewhat ironic given later events.

I doubt I would have ousted him due to a bribe.

It is impossible to consider our reactions to such a situation.

Given that the modern narrative of Hypatia is myth, I'm not surprised.

What "modern narrative" are you referencing?

While it's always fun to "blame the pagans" for Christian practices,

As far as I am aware no blame has been apportioned in this exchange.

I doubt Marian nonsense is necessarily rooted in mother goddess worship.

On what evidence are you premising that remark?

[Diogenes]

As I understand it Nestorius expressed concern for the title Theotokos for the Virgin, considering that this title denied the human nature of the Christ and would have preferred the term Anthropotokos but was prepared to compromise on Christotokos given that the human Jesus was born and suffered and died even though he was divine logos as well. In his opinion describing Mary as Theotokos risked denying the humanity of Jesus and therefore potential heresy, which was somewhat ironic given later events.

I've never seen the term Anthropotokos before, I'd be interested in where Nestorius preferred "Anthropotokos".

It is impossible to consider our reactions to such a situation.

If you are free to imagine me in a position to be bribed so that I would vote to depose Nestorius, I'm free to imagine if I would have done so.

What "modern narrative" are you referencing?

Given that Hypatia is your pseudonym and humans are rather intentional in their actions, I would imagine you have some modicum of awareness of her.

As far as I am aware no blame has been apportioned in this exchange.

If you want to be a pedant and be oblivious to the quote marks, you can reinterpret the remark as this:

While it's always fun to [ascribe origins of Christian practices to pagan practices that preceded Christians],

On what evidence are you premising that remark?

If I want to know why certain Christian denominations participate in Marian nonsense, I can easily go to Christian sources to understand their historical motivations.

[Machinist]

The question is how and where?

For what purpose?

Ah well now....

How? Hypostatically. Where? The nether regions.

Because he died so that our sins can die and he stayed dead for 3 days in keeping with an Old Testament motif and then resurrected 3 days later so that we can resurrect from our sins. Where the Spirit went those 3 days, it's any body's guess. I'm sure that whatever He was doing probably was important though.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I've never seen the term Anthropotokos before, I'd be interested in where Nestorius preferred "Anthropotokos".

Nicene emphasis on the deity of Christ brought into fresh prominence the problem of His humanity: if Christ were fully deity, to what extent and in what way could He also be human?

The Greek term Theotokos appears to have begun as an Egyptian Christian title for the Virgin Mary that was probably designed to offset common non Christian use of the same term in reference to Isis and by the early fifth century this term had entered common Christian usage. Hence when Nestorius came to his new see at Constantinople in 428, it was a popular term of piety there. Without digressing into the arguments surrounding the Nature of the Son, Nestorius appears to have personally opposed this term by arguing that Mary did not bear the Godhead, since God had no origin. She was rather the mother of Jesus the Man [Anthropotokos] and even the mother of the Christ [Christotokos]. Nestorius' decision to suppress this term was premised on his contention that it was a “paganism” that did not do justice to the complexities of the Christian doctrine of the incarnation.

His downfall was not purely theological it also had political and temporal factors that included the rivalry between two sees of Alexandria and Constantinople, and the division between the church in the East and the West.

Nestorius’ second and third letters to Pope Celestine I at the beginning and end of 430 respectively are an attempt to explain and then justify his position and the third letter shows his acceptance of the term Christotokos. However, by then it was too late for him. Cyril had gained the support of the Roman see and initially arranged a synod that year in Egypt that would threaten Nestorius with deposition if he would not recant. At this point the Emperor intervened deciding that such a debate should be held at a major synod which was initially planned for Constantinople but changed to Ephesus in early 431 where Cyril took charge and despite considerable support from the Syrian bishops Nestorius and his teachings were anathematized.[See John Anthony McGuckin, The Westminster Handbook to Patristic Theology, Westminster John Knox Press, London & Lousiville,2004; and Aubrey R . Vine, The Nestorian Churches: A Concise History of Nestorian Christianity in Asia from the Persian Schism to the Modern Assyrian, Independent Press Ltd, London, 1937]

Given that Hypatia is your pseudonym and humans are rather intentional in their actions, I would imagine you have some modicum of awareness of her.

My awareness is not the issue. I asked you, what “modern narrative you were referencing? It is a simple question.

If you want to be a pedant

I do not see the relevance that remark.

While it's always fun to [ascribe origins of Christian practices to pagan practices that preceded Christians],

You will find that a substantial amount of “Marian nonsense” has roots in, and echoes, of much earlier goddess worship.

[Cow Poke]

I go to a PCA church which I believe they are fundamentally Calvinist.

You're OK with that? (many are, obviously)

They have teachings there that I am not so sure I agree with. But i've met some really nice people, and I really like the pastors insightful sermons.

So, unless you find something that troubles you - like some off the wall belief you can't abide - and the pastor is actually preaching the truths of the Bible, not just telling good stories...

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

How? Hypostatically. Where? The nether regions.

Because he died so that our sins can die and he stayed dead for 3 days in keeping with an Old Testament motif and then resurrected 3 days later so that we can resurrect from our sins. Where the Spirit went those 3 days, it's any body's guess. I'm sure that whatever He was doing probably was important though.

I think we should leave it there. Suffice to state that you and I do not agree on the above but I do not want to derail your thread any further than I already have done - for which I apologise!