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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Hypostatic Quaternity

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  • Are you saying that Jesus was the reason for Creation? God the Father created matter because of Jesus?

    It seems like i've heard that before. I don't get it, but I have heard that.

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    • "The Son talks to the Father, the Father speaks of his Son, and the Son speaks of the Holy Spirit as "another counselor" so we have three persons, yet only one God. Not three Gods. That is the Trinity." - Sparko.

      That is indeed a Trinity of sorts.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

        The Son. You mean Jesus, no?

        He is reason for creation?
        Yes, Jesus Christ is the incarnate Son of God. And is the reason for creation, John 1:14 KJV, John 1:2-3 KJV, Luke 1:35 KJV, Luke 2:11 KJV, Ephesians 3:9 KJV.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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        • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
          "The Son talks to the Father, the Father speaks of his Son, and the Son speaks of the Holy Spirit as "another counselor" so we have three persons, yet only one God. Not three Gods. That is the Trinity." - Sparko.

          That is indeed a Trinity of sorts.
          The term "Trinity" means the three Persons, God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the One God.

          Trinity is the name of that explanation. Explaining the explanation has been stated as three Who's who are One what.
          Last edited by 37818; 04-18-2021, 09:12 AM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post

            Explaining the explanation has been stated as three Who's who are One what.
            That is indeed One Nebulous Enigma!

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            • Dr.Suess could probably explain it better.

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              • Hypostasis is how things are 3 and 1 at the same time. It's a quantum function. "Quantum" being the closest analogy. A quantum bit, so i'm told, can be in two states and in two places...at the same time. Now I do not understand this. But that is how it is explained in every news article regarding how quantum computers work. They call it superposition and entanglement. Quantum computers are much faster than today's computers because they can take advantage of their 1's and 0's having the property of being a 1 and a 0...at the same time. I think I explained that correctly.

                We could say then that the computations within the motherboard of a Quantum computer (if quantum computers have motherboards), is analogous to Hypostasis.

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                • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                  Hypostasis is how things are 3 and 1 at the same time. It's a quantum function. "Quantum" being the closest analogy. A quantum bit, so i'm told, can be in two states and in two places...at the same time. Now I do not understand this. But that is how it is explained in every news article regarding how quantum computers work. They call it superposition and entanglement. Quantum computers are much faster than today's computers because they can take advantage of their 1's and 0's having the property of being a 1 and a 0...at the same time. I think I explained that correctly.

                  We could say then that the computations within the motherboard of a Quantum computer (if quantum computers have motherboards), is analogous to Hypostasis.
                  Not in this context. It is from Neoplatonism the non-Christian Greek philosophical school from which Christianity obtained the language and the concept. There is nothing in the Septuagint [the early Christian's scripture] to support a belief in a Triune deity.

                  The language found in the gospel of John is periphrastic and contradictory.

                  John 14.9 "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" is later contradicted at 14.28 "because the Father is greater than I" and again at 14.31. "but I do as the Father has commanded me,"

                  And earlier at John 5.30 "I can do nothing on my own."

                  None of those verses suggest what the later Triune creed would contend.

                  Hence over a century of argument and contention concerning this construct of a Triune godhead. The matter could only be resolved by Imperial edict which stated what must be believed and with it carried the threat of severe punishment for those who dissented.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

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                  • Hey! Thanks for contributing to my stream of thoughts here!

                    I am beginning to think that God is not really a trinity per se, but that is something that man has imposed. It can't be One, because the Hebrew's have that number. It can't be two because then it would be too eastern (yin/yang). It can't be 4, 5 or 6, because then it just gets too complex. 3 is just a nice number.

                    If God is a spirit, then it makes no sense to say the Spirit's spirit. Omnipresence intuitively makes sense to me, I guess I can sort of apprehend the concept, which would put the Spirit (which is God) everywhere, and then the theologians over the centuries creatively imposed a trinity upon their understanding of the history of the Jews, and of Jesus, and the way in which this omnipresent Spirit has interacted with mankind.

                    I like the Trinity and I have no problem with associating with any group that is Trinitarian, but I fail to see how that is such an important doctrine.

                    Also, I think the quantum analogy may have been a little overboard. I do think that if the Universal Spirit was indeed intrinsically 3 parts, then there would be an unmistakable 3-ness observable here in our plane. I think it was a literary device of sorts that evolved in the musings and meditations of ancient theologians. And I don't think it was done divisively or deceptively in any way. It was very imaginatively synthesized and codified and I have only immense appreciation for it. It's something I would not even dare bringing up in conversation with anyone in person because it's just not worth straining relationships I have with those who embraces this doctrine.

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                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      I tend to allow a lot more slack here -- I don't think it's a damnable heresy to NOT UNDERSTAND the Trinity, but it would be silly to be able to be accepted without acknowledging the concept of "God in Three Persons".

                      If somebody "rejects" the Trinity, they're basically rejecting the Godhead, and Christ in particular.
                      (Double-checks to see if this is Xtian-only.)

                      193306935_10158159106000835_355398554030169554_n.jpg

                      My sis-in-law posted that meme las week. I had to google it.

                      Athanasian Creed
                      .
                      Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

                      Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord ...

                      It goes on for a while ... Lutherans like that.

                      Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png

                      Bonus points for the pretty picture. Because if you're going to violate the laws of arithmetic, it pays to violate the laws of identity first. Identity is transitive, in classical logics. Since my Christianity is restricted to God as an idea, and I grabbed the chance to study non-classical logics with Willem Blok, non-transitive identity for deities doesn't bother me much.

                      YXMV.

                      Comment



                      • Bonus points for the pretty picture. Because if you're going to violate the laws of arithmetic, it pays to violate the laws of identity first. Identity is transitive, in classical logics. Since my Christianity is restricted to God as an idea, and I grabbed the chance to study non-classical logics with Willem Blok, non-transitive identity for deities doesn't bother me much. -Juvenal





                        Now this is interesting. Thank you for contributing! Identity is transitive. Hmmm. That is very interesting. I don't get it. But it's interesting. I will get it if I keep thinking about it. I've got family here with me for the next several weeks, and it's hard to pontificate upon such abstractions while entertaining guests, but I would greatly appreciate more of your thoughts. I'll check back in most likely on weekends. It's really difficult for me to be proficient at anything on my job or with my family while my mind is off in theoryland pondering logic. It's really been a problem for me lately, and I've got to curb theologyweb a little.

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                        • Is there a possible configuration of abstractions where Jesus is still Divine, still God, and not necessarily part of any Trinity? Per the above diagram obviously, no. But is this the right diagram for the Universal One Mind?

                          I mean, is it conceptual art or is there some logic here?

                          Last edited by Machinist; 06-06-2021, 06:24 AM.

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                          • I don't believe you can have a religion, or a doctrine, around something that makes sense. There must be, it is necessary, that at the heart of any doctrine, there must be something ineffable and incomprehensible. Otherwise, you understand, thus making the supernatural on the same level as man. A symmetrical abstraction, a puzzle, like the diagram above is a perfect mandala, so to speak...for lack of a better term here. It gives the mind something to do, something to look at, and trace with the finger and gives rise to the "ah-ha...I get it" feeling, from which all the other doctrinal details are then built upon.

                            I showed this diagram to a small child during service yesterday, and the child looked up at me and said " I get it" . I did not add anything to this either, just simply handed the printout to her. She looked at it for a few moments, then traced her finger around the triangular geometry and said " I get it...the Father is not the Son....The Son is not the Holy Spirit...The Holy Spirit is not the Father.............................The Father is God....The Son is God........The Holy Spirit is God." Those were her exact words to me.

                            The diagram has internal symmetry and a self contained and self verifying logic. But where did it come from? Is it Art? Or is this truly a triune axiom of the nature of God that can be observed in nature, independent of the Bible? Could you make a diagram with a quaternity for instance, and if I handed it to a young child, would they still "get it"?

                            Comment


                            • The above diagram...it's an equation for the Trinity. It's an ontological equation, complete and whole. It exists in man's mind, and man's mind conceptualized and formulated this equation. Therefore it exists, but only ontologically. It is in itself the Fractal of the Trinity.

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