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Why is the Trinity an essential to there even being a God?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Super Cow View Post
    The Hebrew we have available to us is not the God-breathed Hebrew either. It, like everything we have is a copy of a copy of a copy...
    Yes, copies of copies. The original autographs of the OT Isaiah was written in the Hebrew. The Greek is translation. The original NT Greek autographes citing the OT are in turn God breathed Greek citations of the OT where cited. I guess I wrongly preumed you would know this.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by flowers92 View Post
      Fair enough, I had no clue

      but what about this:

      Matthew 22:41-46
      Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question,
      saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.”

      He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,
      “‘The Lord said to my Lord,

      “Sit at my right hand,
      until I put your enemies under your feet”’?
      If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?”
      And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.


      Jesus asks how can King David call the messiah lord if he is his son?.... because the messiah is God himself (the only conclusion.... they even stopped asking him questions lol)
      Ah, no. Not this citation. "The LORD [meaning God] said to my Lord [not refering to deity]," but human descent. Why would King David call his descendant his Lord? is what Jesus had asked.
      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Ah, no. Not this citation. "The LORD [meaning God] said to my Lord [not refering to deity]," but human descent. Why would King David call his descendant his Lord? is what Jesus had asked.
        ""The LORD [meaning God] said to my Lord [not refering to deity]," but human descent" <- this is Adding to the text

        1. the Hebrew term is often used of God in OT
        2. David called his descendant, the messiah, Lord because he is God incarnate... Psalm 2
        Bible Questions on The Theology QA.

        "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you Matthew" 7:7

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by flowers92 View Post
          ""The LORD [meaning God] said to my Lord [not refering to deity]," but human descent" <- this is Adding to the text

          1. the Hebrew term is often used of God in OT
          2. David called his descendant, the messiah, Lord because he is God incarnate... Psalm 2
          The Psalm Jesus cited referred to God saying to a lord (Psalm 110:1). Not as the deity.
          Jesus in His resurrection as an example was addressed as both "my Lord" and as "my God," BTW. (John 20:28.)
          Psalm 2:7 refers to His bodily resurrection (Acts 13:33) being He is an incarnated Man. As the Lord who is at the right hand of God as the Man (1 Timothy 2:5). Which does not negate His full deity with His Father.
          Last edited by 37818; 04-14-2016, 03:17 PM.
          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by flowers92 View Post
            The bible does not support that. Judaism today does not derive all its theology from the OT, but they have external "traditions".

            Isaiah 9:6
            For to us a child is born,
            to us a son is given;
            and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
            and his name shall be called
            Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
            Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

            btw number 23 s referring to man's sin nature "lie", which is irrelevant because Jesus knew no sin being fully man & fully God.
            Jews do not share your enthusiasm for this as prophesy.

            The translation in original Hebrew is present tense, not future tense as a prophesy.

            Source: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100727190327AAy52rx



            כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם

            יֻלַּד (Yulad)= is born- present tense
            נִתַּן(Nitan)= given present tense
            וַתְּהִי(Vatehi) = and is - present tense
            וַיִּקְרָא(Vayikra)= called past tense

            Unlie the claim of messie, it is in the present tense when it states "rests on his shoulder"- future tense would not be "Vatehi" but "Vayehi"

            There is no reference to the future, it is discussing something that has already happened and is currently in the process of happening. To turn this into a messianic translation, it has been deliberately mistranslated into the future tense!

            Additionally, the end phrase is incorrectly translated as a single individual- an accurate translation is:
            5. ... and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
            Source(s):
            Orthodox Jew; acting Rabbi; knowledge of Hebrew.

            © Copyright Original Source



            See Also: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Med...led/yeled.html
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by flowers92 View Post
              & there is actually much more on this in the OT.

              Psalm 2
              I will tell of the decree:
              The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
              today I have begotten you.
              Let's go with the Hebrew Translation to begin and Psalm 2 in context.

              Source: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16223/jewish/Chapter-2.htm


              1Why have nations gathered and [why do] kingdoms think vain things? אלָמָּה רָגְשׁוּ גוֹיִם וּלְאֻמִּים יֶהְגּוּ רִיק:
              2Kings of a land stand up, and nobles take counsel together against the Lord and against His anointed? ביִתְיַצְּבוּ | מַלְכֵי אֶרֶץ וְרוֹזְנִים נוֹסְדוּ יָחַד עַל יְהֹוָה וְעַל מְשִׁיחוֹ:
              3"Let us break their bands and cast off their cords from us." גנְנַתְּקָה אֶת מוֹסְרוֹתֵימוֹ וְנַשְׁלִיכָה מִמֶּנּוּ עֲבֹתֵימוֹ:
              4He Who dwells in Heaven laughs; the Lord mocks them. דיוֹשֵׁב בַּשָּׁמַיִם יִשְׂחָק אֲדֹנָי יִלְעַג לָמוֹ:
              5Then He speaks to them in His wrath; and He frightens them with His sore displeasure. האָז יְדַבֵּר אֵלֵימוֹ בְאַפּוֹ וּבַחֲרוֹנוֹ יְבַהֲלֵמוֹ:
              6"But I have enthroned My king on Zion, My holy mount." ווַאֲנִי נָסַכְתִּי מַלְכִּי עַל צִיּוֹן הַר קָדְשִׁי:
              7I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you. זאֲסַפְּרָה אֶל חֹק יְהֹוָה אָמַר אֵלַי בְּנִי אַתָּה אֲנִי הַיּוֹם יְלִדְתִּיךָ:
              8Request of Me, and I will make nations your inheritance, and the ends of the earth your possession. חשְׁאַל מִמֶּנִּי וְאֶתְּנָה גוֹיִם נַחֲלָתֶךָ וַאֲחֻזָּתְךָ אַפְסֵי אָרֶץ:
              9You shall break them with an iron rod; like a potter's vessel you shall shatter them." טתְּרֹעֵם בְּשֵׁבֶט בַּרְזֶל כִּכְלִי יוֹצֵר תְּנַפְּצֵם:
              10And now, [you] kings, be wise; be admonished, [you] judges of the earth. יוְעַתָּה מְלָכִים הַשְׂכִּילוּ הִוָּסְרוּ שֹׁפְטֵי אָרֶץ:
              11Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with quaking. יאעִבְדוּ אֶת יְהֹוָה בְּיִרְאָה וְגִילוּ בִּרְעָדָה:
              12Arm yourselves with purity lest He become angry and you perish in the way, for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praises of all who take refuge in Him. יבנַשְּׁקוּ בַר פֶּן יֶאֱנַף | וְתֹאבְדוּ דֶרֶךְ כִּי יִבְעַר כִּמְעַט אַפּוֹ אַשְׁרֵי כָּל חוֹסֵי בוֹ:

              © Copyright Original Source

              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                The translation in original Hebrew is present tense, not future tense as a prophesy.
                Noted.

                It should also be noted what Isaiah wrote (53:6) is in the past tense, ". . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ." And is often cited as a prophecy of Christ's death for our sins (by me and other Christians).
                . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Noted.

                  It should also be noted what Isaiah wrote (53:6) is in the past tense, ". . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ." And is often cited as a prophecy of Christ's death for our sins (by me and other Christians).
                  Likewise, this is indeed the fault of faulty translation and interpretation of Christians as prophecy.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Likewise, this is indeed the fault of faulty translation and interpretation of Christians as prophecy.
                    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Another meaningless response without explanation.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Likewise, this is indeed the fault of faulty translation and interpretation of Christians as prophecy.
                        So who are these scriptures referring to? And how does one determine from a Jewish perspective what is Messianic prophecy vs. present tense? Do the Jews have scriptural references tied to a future Messiah?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Super Cow View Post
                          So who are these scriptures referring to? And how does one determine from a Jewish perspective what is Messianic prophecy vs. present tense?
                          Source: http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa9_56.pdf



                          Isaiah 9:5-6 is not a messianic prophecy according to the Jewish perspective.
                          The correct context of this passage is that it describes events that had already
                          taken place in Jewish history, namely, the birth and naming of this particular child
                          (believed to be Hezekiah, the son of King Ahaz), and a prophecy concerning his
                          future mission (which was fulfilled). Hezekiah's role was to lift Judah from the
                          degenerate conditions into which it had sunk, and to lead the indestructible
                          faithful "Remnant of Israel". According to one interpretation, this passage speaks
                          of the wonders performed by God for Hezekiah as King of Judah, and in it, the
                          Prophet expresses his praise of God for sparing Hezekiah and his kingdom from
                          demise at the hands of Sanheriv and his army, who besieged Jerusalem.

                          © Copyright Original Source




                          Do the Jews have scriptural references tied to a future Messiah?
                          Yes the Torah has prophesies for future messiahs, plural, not singular, as descendants of the House of David. I may go into them next if you are not aware of them.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Jews do not share your enthusiasm for this as prophesy.

                            The translation in original Hebrew is present tense, not future tense as a prophesy.

                            Source: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100727190327AAy52rx



                            כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם

                            יֻלַּד (Yulad)= is born- present tense
                            נִתַּן(Nitan)= given present tense
                            וַתְּהִי(Vatehi) = and is - present tense
                            וַיִּקְרָא(Vayikra)= called past tense

                            Unlie the claim of messie, it is in the present tense when it states "rests on his shoulder"- future tense would not be "Vatehi" but "Vayehi"

                            There is no reference to the future, it is discussing something that has already happened and is currently in the process of happening. To turn this into a messianic translation, it has been deliberately mistranslated into the future tense!

                            Additionally, the end phrase is incorrectly translated as a single individual- an accurate translation is:
                            5. ... and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
                            Source(s):
                            Orthodox Jew; acting Rabbi; knowledge of Hebrew.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            See Also: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Med...led/yeled.html
                            Wait til you meet the Jews i met :)
                            Bible Questions on The Theology QA.

                            "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you Matthew" 7:7

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              The Psalm Jesus cited referred to God saying to a lord (Psalm 110:1). Not as the deity.
                              My point is "this is Adding to the text"
                              may be wishful thinking on your behalf. But the text does not support that. This is a messianic text David is not calling another King lord.
                              Bible Questions on The Theology QA.

                              "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you Matthew" 7:7

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by flowers92 View Post
                                My point is "this is Adding to the text"
                                may be wishful thinking on your behalf. But the text does not support that. This is a messianic text David is not calling another King lord.
                                No. Giving the meaning of the text is not adding to it. Unless the alleged presented meaning is false. So am I to understand that the LORD is not God? Or that a lord is always referring to God?

                                There are two ways to misread a text. Reading into the text what does not say. Or to deny what says and means.

                                Who spoke to David's "lord?" And who was that "lord" in the text? ". . . The LORD saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' . . ." Psalm 110:1

                                Questions: Was Jesus a human descendant of David? Is Jesus still a human (1 Timothy 2:5)?
                                . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                                Comment

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