Thought I would check in as well......

[Sparko]

So if I believe someone is going to die, that means I hate them? What kind of screwy logic is that?

[rogue06]

This I do believe. But not everything that people say Jesus said was actually said by Jesus. And all of that extra stuff just leads to religion where the precepts of men are taught. All of that temporal stuff just confuses people.

This sounds like you believe Jesus but only when He believes the same way that you do. That truly is a hazardous road to take

[jo1952]

For those seeking the truth it can be found by following and believing in Jesus.

Jesus never taught religion. He taught a way to live. He was the only one who ever lived who was able to live the way He taught. People find great comfort in religion; as it relieves them of the responsibility of the way they treat others. Incredibly, followers of Jesus justify their treatment of others because of their religious interpretations of what Jesus taught which have been built upon by the precepts of men. Inasmuch as Jesus was able to live what He taught even to the point of forgiving those who crucified Him (even though they didn't believe Him, had not accepted Him, nor had they asked for forgiveness); it is easy to see that Christians are NOT living the "way" Jesus taught and lived. It is evident in this thread.

I think that the "mysteries of God" are being revealed now...in preparation for His return. Whether or not we find and/or believe or choose to reject them, is inconsequential in the eternal sense. Right now we have no choice other than to choose to believe or reject---or maybe even not find the sources which are revealing them because we aren't seeking for them----we can't yet KNOW (which leaves no room to doubt). Even so, when He DOES return, those mysteries will no longer remain mysteries. Who we are, why we are here....the Real Truth about what is going on inside of mortality, will no longer be questioned---as we will have the knowledge of that Real Truth. As such, faith will no longer be required...belief will be done away; because we will KNOW the truth.

This is NOT speaking of something magical or mystical or spiritual.....it is speaking of real first-hand knowledge. We can't have that real knowledge yet as it would destroy the purpose of experiencing mortality in a state of faith/belief. That will change when He returns.

What you speak of concerning Jesus is still faith and belief based----it is not based on real first-hand knowledge. It brings comfort to people because they are constantly looking toward some outside source to answer questions for which they cannot find undeniable answers. "Feeling good" is not proof; agreeing with masses of people is not proof; etc.

The best that any of us can do is choose to believe whatever we choose to believe. We simply can't know...though our minds are so powerful, we can convince ourselves of anything we want to believe in enough to the point that we think we have a real knowledge. If we choose to believe in "religion", we are apt to happily then condemn any who don't believe the same as we believe. "Religion" is one of the biggest "evils" mankind has come up with. We do all sorts of terrible things to others in the name of "God" and our religion. Jesus was dangerous not only to the political leaders of His day; He was a danger to the religion of His day. Then along came "Christianity"...a new religion--but this time built upon the teachings of Christ. It became just like the religion of His day....mankind still teaching as doctrine the commandments (precepts) of men. This passage applies to today just as much as it applied to those living when Christ was first here in the flesh:

Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Inasmuch as Jesus also taught us that the Kingdom of God is within...then how is it possible that He would also say that not every one shall enter the kingdom of heaven? It's because those who practice iniquity (practice the idea that they are special...for instance those who think that they are saved and others are damned just because others don't agree with what they believe) will not be able to accept what Jesus taught---that the kingdom of God IS within them. But that is according to their own thoughts!! They can't enter the kingdom of God within them as long as they practice iniquity. So, who practices iniquity? Those who cling to religion! Religion creates inequality.

All this....yet I believe it is ALL okay. No one is damned....none damned....though we will continue to participate in that lake of fire and brimstone until it isn't necessary anymore. Once our name is found in that book of life, we will go no more out (all of which is spoken symbolically from the Book of Revelation). There is a time limit for participating inside mortality in a state of faith/belief. Once that phase is finished, the next phase of mortality begins...this time, with full and real knowledge. Christ will reign; enforcing the "way" He taught in the flesh.

Meh....you don't need to believe me....no one does.

[Cow Poke]

Jo,

I said I had no intention to debate you, and I mean that. I have no anger or hate toward you, and wish you no ill will. I really meant what I said when I told you I was glad to see you are alive and kicking. I had been concerned about you.

Now, I clearly think Frank is a fraud and a liar and a con man. I think he has proved that over and over. I also realize you love him, so you're going to defend him. That's going to be an obvious "sore spot" between us. But I have to be honest.

I don't expect you to "get this" right now, because I honestly think you're very confused.

When I met you, you were a dyed-in-the-wool Mormon apologist. You could be quite vicious at times, then at other times you acted like you and I were best friends in the world. I never knew which Jo I was going to get.

So, at some point in time, Frank comes into your life. He manages to dupe you into believing he is joining your Church, and you start a very joyous thread about it, with hopes and aspirations of him being a great leader in the Mormon faith, expressing your delight that he is learning so much.

He snookered you, Jo. At the same time you were celebrating his conversion, he was explaining to Vivian that it was not a conversion at all.

At the same time you were rejoicing in him coming into your Church, he was denouncing the LDS Temple even while, apparently, receiving the "priesthood".
He snookered the Mormon Church, and STILL claims - according to his faith designation - to be a Mormon.

So, I can understand why you'd be mad at me -- I think Frank is a low life fraud and deceiver, and you love him.

I think you're confused. I think you've been grandly snookered. How can I possibly be angry at, or HATE, somebody who I believe is a victim of fraud?

I'm going to continue to be polite to you, Jo, and I'm going to continue to pray for you and love you.

All I ask is that you be honest - if you can show anywhere or any time that I claimed you were damned, or you can show any reason to honestly believe I hate you, I'd love to discuss it.

[jo1952]

And some a bit nutty

My favorites are the soft centers...though I like nutty ones as well!!

[jo1952]

It's my job to call out frauds and false prophets, Frank. And I'm wondering why you're still masquerading as a Mormon.



This was shortly after Jo had started a thread rejoicing that you had converted to Mormonism. You fooled her, but not us. You're a fraud, Frank.

Just for the record, we have both left the Church. Also, even according to the NT, being called fool is actually a positive thing....lol....

But I do appreciate your Christlike remarks.....

[jo1952]

Still praying for you, Jo.

Here is what doesn't need to be stripped from the Old Testament: Genesis - Malachi.

And I am sure it is still making you feel good. I truly am happy for you!!

[Cow Poke]

Just for the record, we have both left the Church.

Yet Frank continues to masquerade as a Mormon.

[jo1952]

Hi Frank and Jo! Wishing you both the best!

Hi lao tzu!!! Good to see you again!! Wishing you all the best as well!!

[jo1952]

First of all, Jo, I never said, nor implied, that you were damned. And I don't hate you. I think you're confused.



Woah, hold up... please show me where I ever indicated that you were damned.



I don't.



I think you're confused, Jo.



Can you show where I EVER said you were damned? EVER?

And I'm still praying for you.

Since you are praying for me, it is obvious you think I need prayer; for what, to not be so confused; for what, so that then I can believe the same as you? And then what, the result being that you will believe I can then get into heaven? Can't you be honest with yourself and other readers for once? I think not...because admitting such a thing would cause you to lose value in yourself and those things you have chosen to believe. Not to worry, though....we all do it. The biggest difference in me is that I no longer think that others aren't going to make it.... I am still not able to live the "way" Jesus taught; I'll be the first to admit it. I can't even make it through a single day without having thoughts of comparing others and their actions and beliefs against one another. My thoughts are still very much influenced by the flesh; of course, that's the whole purpose of participating inside of mortality. So I don't beat myself up the way I used to....I just do the best I can----just like everyone else does on TWEB; and all in accordance with whatever it is that we happen to believe--all in accordance with our own individual perception.

You know, it is extremely freeing to be able to truly love everyone no matter what they believe. It is even more freeing to believe that no matter what they believe, we are all going to be okay. That rest of the soul that Jesus promised....you can't experience it until you no longer have iniquity in your heart. That idol has been smashed; I am already in heaven. I don't need to pray for anyone...though my compassion and suffering when someone else suffers is still ripe (even the Lord's prayer does NOT include praying for the welfare of others). Even so, my thoughts are with them; and if there is something I can physically do to cause relief, then I do it. Now, though, the pain is not based upon an eternal "soul" suffering. The suffering of the flesh is ONLY while we are in the flesh; and seeing others suffer because of the experiences of the flesh will continue to cause me to have compassion on those who suffer; however, my understanding now is that the suffering really is ultimately for a good cause. There is no need to consider things such as God is either punishing us or blessing us. There is no need to ask God to take sides. God causes it to rain and causes the sun to shine on ALL of us equally. He is no respecter of persons. My soul is at rest; and this includes a peace for the souls of all mankind. It is awesome!!!

[Cow Poke]

Since you are praying for me, it is obvious you think I need prayer;

Yes, you need the prayer and I need the practice!

for what, to not be so confused;

That, among other things, yes.

[Sparko]

But jo, if CP does think you are damned, that doesn't mean he hates you. Like I said before if I believe someone is going to die, that doesn't mean I hate them.

All it means is that CP is concerned for your soul, that you have wandered off the path and are heading for a cliff. So he prays that you will open your eyes and stop before it is too late. In fact if he hated you, he would tell you that everything is fine, you have nothing to worry about, just keep making up your own cult.

That's the way I see it anyhow. Frank is an egomaniac and he figures if Joseph Smith could start his own religion, then why can't he do it too? So he takes a bit here and there and makes up some new religion, gets you to be his "high priestess," and then goes around the internet seeing if he can get others to follow him off the cliff.

[jo1952]

You can't put new wine in a on old wineskin. I am thrilled for Frank that he chose to open his mind so that he could do away with his old wineskin. It makes our journey so much easier as a couple because we are at the same place in our journey. Only the close-minded who are comforted and content by the traditions they have been taught will not be able to receive anything different. Even so, that is okay.

As far as prayer....even the Lord's prayer does not teach us to pray on behalf of others---at least not beyond asking that their trespasses against us be forgiven (even this was trying to teach an important message). What Jesus DID teach about prayer is overlooked; Christians think that Jesus could not have been pointing to them...if for no other reason than Christianity had not yet been created. However, if it walks, talks and looks like a duck; then it IS a duck. Jesus taught an important message about those praying in their churches and on the street corners; that they were already receiving their reward. IOW, it wasn't giving them anything beneficial eternally speaking. They were receiving the satisfaction of appearing righteous by virtue of how they and others could see that they were praying. It is so common place in the tradition of Christianity to "pray for others", that we simply do not apply Jesus' message to us. It is like a display of extra-special love...that we would ask God on their behalf (especially announcing it publicly)....it has become a manifestation which somehow proves that we love one another. Praying in this manner brings value to us...how we see ourselves, and how others who believe the same as we do see us. It makes us feel good; we think it makes Jesus happy---even though He was clearly not happy when He pointed out those same habits in others while He was in the flesh. He was giving us clues as to the Real Truth. The prayer that He DID teach was an internalized one; pointing us to the kingdom of God within. But since we use the now old wineskin of traditional Christian prayer (just like the Jews were doing in His day), we are unable to see that Jesus' teaching still only points to a worldly, here and now reward. Look at how kind I am...and how humble and righteous and loving (and that is why I always appreciate it when someone says they are praying for me--because I know it brings that individual comfort and happiness)...to be praying on someone else's behalf...because I am a Christian and even pray in the name of Christ, I am special. This is an idol of our hearts; it is iniquity. The only reward being received is the worldly one....there is no treasure being laid up in heaven. We do not see that by praying for others in this manner that this manifests iniquity (the iniquity of believing we are thus righteous or that we have the ear of the Lord; that since we have His ear He will hear us and treat us or the ones we are praying for unequally over the remainder of mankind).

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Since we all do good and all do evil at some time; and since we are all just and are all unjust some time....who are we to judge (judge not that ye be not judged) who is good or evil or just or unjust? God does not make that distinction; why should we? One of the clues He is giving about the sun and the rain is to teach us that we are all equal in God's eyes. It is only in the eyes of carnal man that iniquity exists. And that iniquity is an idol in our hearts. That iniquity is a stumbling block...do we think that we are unlike those He was teaching---that we could never have that idol/that iniquity/that stumbling block? Indeed, if we are all equal; then what need does one require for us to pray for them--while others are not prayed for? Why pray for one person or one group over another? When we ask God to bless our country, our nation, our troops, our sick loved one.....what about all of the other countries, nations, troops, sick loved ones? Are they not just as important and/or loved the same by God? When we do not see ourselves equal as God does, we are in the process of denying our true self. We lose connection with our true self; giving control of our mortal self to the god of this world. Even so, the god of this world's time for power and control is limited. We will all return to who we really are; none will be lost. The only place we can be in a condition of being "lost" is while we are here in mortality. It is a worldly condition purposed for something wise about our eternal existence.

[Cow Poke]

I am thrilled for Frank that he chose to open his mind so that he could do away with his old wineskin.

Maybe he should change the label on the bottle.

[Sparko]

tl;dr