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Thought I would check in as well......

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  • Thought I would check in as well......

    Part 1 of 4

    I know, I know….it’s a book. How can I wrap up what I have learned in three years in a short post?

    Update for those who remember me. I am “jo”---who used to post here to defend the LDS Church. I have left the Church, as has my husband, Frank, who used to post here as “Franktalk”. In fact, we have left “religion” entirely. You may find it interesting to know that I/we still believe that Joseph Smith was a “True” prophet---though we now prefer to call him a True Messenger. We still believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of “God”---though we now believe in a different definition of “God”. We still believe in “Christ”---though now understand His position and “calling” differently than is generally accepted by the world. We believe that He will indeed return and the mysteries of God will be revealed---in fact, the mysteries of God have already been revealed for those with the eyes to see and the ears to hear. However, when He returns, the need for “belief” will no longer exist because we will then “know”; as His presence and what He does in His administration of His office will be made manifest…leaving no doubt as to His identity, to OUR identity, and to the REAL purpose why human beings experience mortality.

    Instead of believing about Christ what the world and the traditions of our fathers have taught us about Him, we now believe what Christ Himself taught; as well as what “Prophets” of scripture have taught about Him. BTW, “prophets” and Christ teach mankind in accordance with man’s already existing belief systems; so it is that these individuals will use religious beliefs to teach within---though their message is not actually about religion….

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    This reign will take place when He returns. When He was here in the flesh, He taught and lived the principle of what will bring Earth the Peace it is seeking. THAT is what He taught us to believe when He said we needed to believe in Him---to believe in what He was teaching. Without living the principles He taught, we can never find Peace here on Earth. Our actions toward each other ever since man first appeared on this Earth, is proof that we aren’t able to live that “way”. We never will be able to live that way without submitting to someone else’s authority over us; i.e., submitting to a Christ/Savior/King of Kings/Governor who we know can rule over us with complete righteousness and fairness.

    When He returns and presents the form of Government which is the only form which can ever afford Peace, we will accept His “way” in order to be able to participate inside of mortality and be able to find Peace here. That is what is meant when we read how every knee shall bow. It is the same Government that has always been used, worlds without end.

    We enter mortality for a wise purpose; which purpose Joseph tried to teach but which he could not because the people rejected the simple Gospel message. We are immortal; we have always existed. Mortality is a phase of the eternal rounds of eternity we participate inside of during our eternal existence.

    Jesus taught BEFORE He was crucified that He had finished the work Father sent Him to do!!

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
    8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


    What were the things He taught? The “way” to live in Peace; see Matthew 5, 6, and 7 AND 3 Nephi 12, 13 and 14. THAT is the work which the Father gave Christ to do. Christ’s test, though, was not only to perform this work; it was also to see if He would continue to live that example/”way” even when faced with physical death---especially the type of death which His enemies would inflict upon Him. He was able to live exactly what He preached; even forgiving those who killed Him---even though they did not seek His forgiveness or accept Him in the manner that Christianity believes a person must accept Him in order to be “saved”. As such, He was able to prove that He can be trusted in the position of authority as Christ/Savior/King of Kings/Governor.

  • #2
    Part 2 of 4

    The LDS believe that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel. So why, then, does the Church also teach things that are NOT even in the BoM? What is with all of the ordinances and temples and work for the dead about? These are things given to the people once they rejected the simple Gospel message. Just as with Moses, when the people rejected the invitation to meet with the Lord, Moses then gave them the Law to follow. The people wanted “religion” and all the trappings that would make them “special” to God----even though God is NOT a respecter of persons, and ALL are alike unto God. So it was with Joseph; once the people rejected the Gospel message, Joseph gave them the religion that they wanted. Well….they got it!!! They got plenty of “law”---even though Christ told us that He had fulfilled the Law. Joseph even taught that he was told to NOT join any religion---but we wound up with yet another one (and that because that is what the people wanted---and to not interfere with their free will, Joseph gave it to them!!)? What did Isaiah have to say about how this is an abomination to the Lord?

    Isaiah 1:10 ¶Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
    11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
    12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
    13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
    14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.


    BTW, Sodom and Gomorrah are representative of any who look like this:

    Ezekiel 16: 49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

    It is iniquity to desire inequality when God is not a respecter of persons and all are alike unto God! Those things are the idols in our hearts…..the desire to appear special or chosen in the eyes of the Lord. However, if people desire it, God allows Prophets to give people what they want. This iniquity then becomes a stumbling block for them.

    Ezekiel 14:1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
    2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
    3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
    4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
    5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
    6 ¶Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

    ANY who think they are special and/or chosen in any way are guilty of iniquity. What does Christ say about this?

    Matthew 21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Comment


    • #3
      Part 3 of 4

      Specifically, what about the work for the dead? If you believe the Book of Mormon then why does the Church concentrate on genealogy? Here is what Nephi said about it:

      1 Nephi 6:1 And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in this part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these plates which I am writing; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my father; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.
      2 For it sufficeth me to say that we are descendants of Joseph.
      3 And it mattereth not to me that I am particular to give a full account of all the things of my father, for they cannot be written upon these plates, for I desire the room that I may write of the things of God.
      4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.
      5 Wherefore, the things which are pleasing unto the world I do not write, but the things which are pleasing unto God and unto those who are not of the world.


      Did you catch that??? Nephi is NOT giving genealogy because genealogy is something that is pleasing unto the world. Nephi is going to write about the things which are pleasing unto GOD and unto those who are not of this world!!!!!! Oh the money spent to build large and spacious buildings for something which is only pleasing to the world……..

      Do you not see that the Book of Mormon points continually to the modern Church? Joseph told us that the Church was already under condemnation here:

      D&C 84:55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
      56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
      57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—


      It remains under condemnation. President Benson said this:

      Ezra Taft Benson, https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...y=condemnation

      Some of the early missionaries, on returning home, were reproved by the Lord in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants because they had treated lightly the Book of Mormon. As a result, their minds had been darkened. The Lord said that this kind of treatment of the Book of Mormon brought the whole Church under condemnation, even all of the children of Zion. And then the Lord said, “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon.” (See D&C 84:54–57.) Are we still under that condemnation?
      Though Benson recognized what was said about how it was that the Church was under condemnation….and he realized that somehow the Church needed to do something about this through efforts involving the Book of Mormon, I don’t think that the Church believes what the Book of Mormon actually teaches. She sees it in accordance with the other things She teaches----thus not really having the eyes to see what the BoM SAYS; but rather interpreting what She thinks it says through the perception of incorporating all of the other things the Church teaches which are NOT in the BoM (and regardless of how the Church SAYS the entire Gospel is in the BoM!). The manifesting of the idols in their hearts of iniquity (the inequality they feel of being special and chosen---after all, just look at all of the things the Lord has given US to do which no one else has been given to do!!) are a stumbling block. She remains under condemnation; and doesn’t even understand why!

      Comment


      • #4
        Part 4 of 4

        Fortunately, the Father doesn’t work in accordance with the Church’s time table of Her continuation of being under condemnation. The Father’s work goes forth despite what the rest of the world thinks, believes, or does. The Father’s mysteries that were sealed up before the foundation of the world are being revealed right now!

        Christ’s message was very simple….it is basically to “do unto others as you would have others do unto you”! When He returns, He will set up a perfect Government which establishes the Peace we seek while participating inside of mortality. It will be none too soon, because “Babylon is fallen”! We are only beginning to see the “wrath of God” being poured down upon the inhabitants of the Earth. The purpose of mortality (our third estate) is to allow us to be able to experience our own personal fullness of joy in our second estate of existence in this round of our eternal existence. Once mortality has completed its purpose for us, we will no longer need to participate in it. We will, though, continue to exist in our second estate until such time as we no longer desire to exist there….and we will then return to our first estate----where we have been existing all along.

        All of that said….there is no way I can prove any of what I believe. I believe it is the purpose of mortality to experience this phase of eternal existence under a veil of forgetfulness. As such, we are currently required to experience mortality in “faith”; IOW, without real knowledge. The next phase of mortality (which our “Christ” will usher in) will be without that veil; IOW, with real knowledge. The purpose of mortality is wise; and we are all exactly right where we need to be.
        Believing my interpretations of doctrine…or in any of my beliefs is not necessary. I am merely sharing a portion of what I now believe. Christ taught:

        John 12: 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jo1952 View Post
          ... as has my husband, Frank, who used to post here as “Franktalk”.
          After all he supposedly did to you, you are still married?
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            After all he supposedly did to you, you are still married?
            Hahahaha!! Remind me....what all did he supposedly do to me?? I could still get even---but you didn't hear that from me.....

            How the heck are you???

            Comment


            • #7
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Jo,

                I'm glad you are alive and kicking (albeit, of course, with health issues). I have thought of you often, and have been praying for you from time to time.

                I don't see any point in debating you, as I believe you are even more confused than before.

                I still believe Frank is a fraud, and has caused you great harm.

                I wish for you the true peace that only comes from Christ. All that you need is in Christ Jesus. Joseph Smith adds nothing to that.

                Col 2:6 Therefore, as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, overflowing with gratitude. 8 Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ. 9 For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ...
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Jo,

                  I'm glad you are alive and kicking (albeit, of course, with health issues). I have thought of you often, and have been praying for you from time to time.

                  I don't see any point in debating you, as I believe you are even more confused than before.

                  I still believe Frank is a fraud, and has caused you great harm.

                  I wish for you the true peace that only comes from Christ. All that you need is in Christ Jesus. Joseph Smith adds nothing to that.

                  Col 2:6 Therefore, as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, overflowing with gratitude. 8 Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ. 9 For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ...
                  Hello CP!

                  I would offer that Christianity as we know it today was part of what was manufactured to look enough like what people had previously held as their belief systems (which we now consider to be myth) in order for people to accept the new form of belief called Christianity. IOW, what is believed by the Christian world is actually what we should be careful of today.... "Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ." What Christ actually said/taught/lived Himself does not look like what is lived by Christianity today. Christianity DOES, however, look very much like the mythical beliefs of what was traditionally believed before our Christ walked the earth. Man is extremely clever; and will use his cleverness for his own purposes---even when he took what our Christ taught---and created what we now call the tradition of Christianity. Even the idea of calling oneself a Christian causes separation and inequality from others...because the Christian believes he is saved while others are not; it is iniquity!

                  For example, I look around our world today---including at the USA---and I do not see that we do what Christ would do if He were here today. Even so, many in America have taken upon themselves the name of Christ. I think that they do so in vain...as they do not actually act as Christ would act. In fact, instead of:

                  Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

                  45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


                  we rather pray that God bless our own country, our own troops....asking God to take sides even though He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, etc... We don't pray to God and ask Him to bless our enemies. We actually stand in groups on the streets or in our churches for the purpose of praying to God for own behalf and causes....just like those whom Jesus pointed to:

                  Matthew 6:5 ¶And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

                  Now, I realize that there are many who take offense at the things that I say...or may even hate me for what I say....they hated Jesus as well---and went so far as to crucify Him. He was politically extremely unpopular. He was teaching peace and no resistance; when the Jews wanted someone to free them from their political oppressors. They expected their Messiah to crush their enemies; but Jesus wouldn't even interfere with the free will of those who desired to harm and kill Him. I try to pretty much stick to the words we believe that Jesus spoke--as opposed to using the words of those who we believe were His apostles and disciples. BTW, have you realized that we don't actually have any record of Jesus writing down the things He taught? It is ALL based upon hearsay...being left up to us to choose to accept it or not.

                  Here is an interesting video which compares what is now considered to be mythical belief systems vs Christianity. When I remove what is actually believed to be the words of our Christ from the picture of Christianity, I am amazed at how cleverly "Christianity" was made to look like those more ancient belief systems. It made it so much easier for the political and religious powers of post Christ's life to create yet another belief system which allowed them to have control over the hearts and minds of the people. That system is now another tradition taught and believed; but has little resemblance to looking like the words which was the actual work of our Christ.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

                  We are all only able to believe what our current perception allows us to see and hear. That's just how mankind is. If our cup is full, there is no room for anything different. We can’t put new wine in an old wine skin. We can all find real truth; but we have to be looking for it to find it. Seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you. People find comfort inside of religion...they are happy to look outside of themselves instead of looking for the kingdom of God which resides inside of them. The thing is, I no longer believe it is even necessary to find it. Just as Jesus taught, which I have already shared:

                  John 12: 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

                  Ultimately, it is all good....the purpose for participating inside of mortality accomplishes a marvelous work and a wonder in our eternal existence. Fear toward the Lord is taught by the precept of men:

                  Isaiah 29:13 ¶Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

                  14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.


                  I am not surprised that you think I am even more lost than before....many would call me foolish. I believe I know who I AM....I have no longer forgotten my first love. When Christ returns, we will all KNOW who we ARE....we will be seen as we really are.

                  (I am going ahead and use the words of John the Beloved, as I believe he is still on the earth, and is a reliable source to use….)

                  1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.
                  13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
                  14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.


                  We HAVE known Him from the beginning….because we ARE eternal and always have been (how else could we have known Him from the beginning?). The wicked one we are able to overcome is the carnal self…finally seeing that both good and evil come from inside; the carnal due to the flesh, and “God” because of our divinity. The battle takes place inside of the mortal body inside of our own mind---though our true self is not of this realm. My perception of who the Father is has completely changed!

                  We are all equal; though we are all unique and different. One is not better than another....just different. We should be treating each other as equals; just like Father treats us, and just as Jesus taught.

                  Did you not see what Jesus said when He said that His work had already been accomplished...and this BEFORE He was crucified? It is His teachings which are the "way" that we can have peace on earth. He taught it while in the flesh His first time here. When He returns, He will enforce it. THAT is when He will actually “save” us....He will save us from ourselves and how we treat each other…because we aren't capable of treating each other with respect and kindness and forgiveness. We are too selfish. He was chosen before the foundation of this world to fulfill the role of Christ...the ONE who would have the ability to fulfill that role. He is THE ONE trained from the very beginning of this eternal round to do that job. No one, no group, has ever been able to live the "way" He taught and lived. NOT ONE!! To think that He has already saved us from the world and brought peace to the world defies what is actually happening around us. I look forward to His return when the "way" He taught will finally be implemented. He is qualified to do it...the ONLY ONE in our world who can!! That belief absolutely gives me peace; not as the world even perceives peace (because we certainly do NOT have peace on earth---at least not yet)---but as an eternal peace which reaches beyond the confines of mortality. Meanwhile my soul is at peace because my sins have been forgiven…just as John spoke above; even though there is no peace yet on this earth.

                  People find great comfort in religion; mankind created religion! As such, I appreciate that you pray for me. It gives you comfort to feel that you can do something that may be able to influence whether or not I get “saved”. You are receiving your reward right now; it is a worldly reward. Mankind always looks beyond themselves (and way beyond the mark) and gives credit for what they perceive to be good as being caused by the outside source known as God. If they perceive it is bad, they say it is caused by the outside source known as Satan. It takes them off the hook of being personally responsible. Even so, Jesus taught us:

                  Luke 17:20 ¶And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

                  21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


                  I believe Him. I have found the kingdom of God within. I am no Pharisee who says that unless you do this or that, or believe this or that, that you cannot enter the gates of Heaven. God doesn’t need anyone else to monitor the gates of Heaven. How presumptuous of any to believe that they are either needed or qualified to do so for another. To think that one of us is better than another (or even that one is saved and another is not—which, of course, is a form of iniquity) is iniquity; and Christ doesn’t think much of those who practice iniquity. In fact He will profess to those who practice iniquity that He never knew them. That means, that even though a person thinks they know Jesus, they actually do not if they practice iniquity.

                  I believe that we are all okay...that He will return and finally bring peace on earth. He did not come to judge the world---even though the world will use their belief in Christ to judge the world (oh, the irony!); but to save it (even though man may not hear and believe). Not in the manner that most generally believe that "saving" means; but in a manner that allows our eternal progression to continue the "way" that it always has. We need to be able to experience mortality while peace is here just as much as we need to experience mortality when peace is not here; it is part of the wise eternal purpose we enter mortality.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Jo, what part of "I don't see any point in debating you, as I believe you are even more confused than before" do you not understand? CP is not the only one praying for you.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jo1952 View Post
                      Hello CP!
                      Hi Jo

                      not going there

                      Praying for you, instead.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, do pray if it makes you feel better.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Franktalk View Post
                          Yes, do pray if it makes you feel better.
                          You need the prayer, Frank, and I need the practice!
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            Jo, what part of "I don't see any point in debating you, as I believe you are even more confused than before" do you not understand? CP is not the only one praying for you.
                            If it brings you comfort, then pray away.

                            Do you believe Christ when He taught:

                            Matthew 11:28 ¶Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

                            29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

                            30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


                            Why do you feel burdened for my sake? If you truly believed Christ, you would not be concerned about the well being of my soul.

                            I no longer feel burdened about the souls of others the way I used to when I was a part of organized religion. When I finally gave up the world and its traditions of belief, I received His message. My soul truly HAS found rest!!! We are all doing just fine. I believe Christ and what He taught.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Compassion for others does not cease with enlightenment. In fact, evidence would indicate that compassion becomes greater the more enlightened a being is. Practicing 'metta', lovingkindness meditation, is a holy and sacred thing. It should not be dismissed lightly.

                              Comment

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