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What constitutes a Christian denomination?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    Really? Which ones are cults? I'll grant you the Branch Davidians and Westboro Baptists are cults, but that's only two, not many. Even if you include the Albigensians and Jehovah's witnesses, it's still not many.
    You haven't defined what is a 'denomination' yet and haven't even come close to getting to even 1% of 30,000. So start here... what is a denomination?

    So which ones are cults? Or is it your own knowledge of religion that is lacking? I'd be extremely surprised if you even recognised all the names, let alone knew anything about them.
    Here is what I said:

    Many of those are cult groups.

    Why is it that some atheist knock Jorge for making stupid mistakes of reading and fact, when they go on to make stupid mistakes of reading and fact? I actually know pretty much every group of listed and I would love to see you try to prove that some of those groups you listed as separate denominations and see you prove it. Just to name a few examples of groups you count as 'denomination'... you say:

    Order of St Stephen

    Yet, what I could find about them is stuff like this:

    "All members must be Roman Catholic, although exceptions are made for Heads of State and members of royal families who are members of the other Christian denominations."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Stephen

    Or another entry of yours:

    Franciscians

    Yet I find:

    "Franciscans are people and groups (religious orders) who adhere to the teachings and spiritual disciplines of Saint Francis of Assisi. The term is usually applied to members who also adhere to the Roman Catholic Church. However, other denominations also have members who describe themselves as Franciscans. They include Old Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciscan

    Yet another one:

    Knights Templar

    Yet again:

    "Officially endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church around 1129, the Order became a favoured charity throughout Christendom and grew rapidly in membership and power. Templar knights, in their distinctive white mantles with a red cross, were among the most skilled fighting units of the Crusades.Non-combatant members of the Order managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom, innovating financial techniques that were an early form of banking, and building fortifications across Europe and the Holy Land."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

    So did you just find a list online and are hoping that Rogue, CP, and myself are too stupid to use the internet? Your 'list' seems to be shrinking when you start actually looking at in, in depth, and find out that you are so loosely defining 'denomination' that almost any group could count as a separate denomination (even if it is/was official endorsed and affiliated with another denomination on your 'list').

    Not that it really matters whether they're cults or not, they're still Christian denominations - and one person's cult is another person's religion.
    In other words, you're trying to sound just like Jorge, when talking about religion. Got it.
    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-22-2015, 09:39 AM.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
      If somebody is going to name off 'Christian Groups' (IE groups because many on the list are also not denominations, but groups), they might want to first define who they are calling 'Christian' and what they are defining as a 'denomination' because The Knight's Templar are about as much of a 'denomination' as the Masons are.
      Christian: someone who takes the NT as scripture and either accepts Jesus as the son of God or follows his teachings.
      Denomination: a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity.
      Only people who don't understand the difference between orders and denominations, would say things like that.
      Perhaps you could elaborate on why the Franciscans, for example, do not qualify as a denomination? They have a name, an identity, and traditions in addition to those of mainstream Catholicism.

      Roy
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

      Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        They accept the NT as scripture, follow the teachings of Jesus and believe he was the son of God. How are they not Christian?

        Roy
        All of them deny the teaching of the Trinity, the Mormons add their own scripture to the mix (and Jehovah's witnesses tend to treat the Watchtower publications as if they were scripture) and and Unitarians deny the deity of Christ, while Jehovah's witnesses think Jesus was a created being. And when these groups call Jesus the son of God they mean something categorically different than what orthodox Christians mean by the term.
        ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          All of them deny the teaching of the Trinity, the Mormons add their own scripture to the mix (and Jehovah's witnesses tend to treat the Watchtower publications as if they were scripture) and and Unitarians deny the deity of Christ, while Jehovah's witnesses think Jesus was a created being. And when these groups call Jesus the son of God they mean something categorically different than what orthodox Christians mean by the term.
          One would have thought that Roy - who attacks Christianity at every
          opportunity - would be well aware of all of this. Wonders never cease.

          Jorge

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            Christian: someone who takes the NT as scripture and either accepts Jesus as the son of God or follows his teachings.
            So have you read the theology of Christian scientist, Jehovah's Witnesses, or Mormons? I wasn't aware that Jesus taught the physical world was a delusion or that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. This is just a few problems with your definition above. Do you want me to carry on?

            Denomination: a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity.Perhaps you could elaborate on why the Franciscans, for example, do not qualify as a denomination? They have a name, an identity, and traditions in addition to those of mainstream Catholicism.
            Perhaps because the Franciscans are official affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church and submit to it and the pope's authority? I think you just found a list online and are really hoping that the rest of us do not know how to use the internet to quickly look up information on your list. How could the Franciscans be a separate denomination, when they are officially part of the Roman Catholic Church and submit to the church's authority? That is like saying that New York isn't part of the US because it has a state government (even though New York officially agrees to be part of the US). Does that make any sense to you?
            Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-22-2015, 09:49 AM.
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              Here is what I said:

              Many of those are cult groups.
              Yes, you did say that. Then I asked you to identify the many cults among hose I listed. You haven't done so, and I don't think you can. Instead, you're trying to muddy the waters regarding the definition of 'denomination'.

              If you can identify the "Cult groups", do so.
              If you can't, admit you were wrong.
              If you don't do either, I have no interest in further conversation with you.
              So did you just find a list online and are hoping that Rogue, CP, and myself are too stupid to use the internet?
              No, I did it from memory, as rogue suggested.

              Roy
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                All of them deny the teaching of the Trinity, the Mormons add their own scripture to the mix (and Jehovah's witnesses tend to treat the Watchtower publications as if they were scripture) and and Unitarians deny the deity of Christ, while Jehovah's witnesses think Jesus was a created being. And when these groups call Jesus the son of God they mean something categorically different than what orthodox Christians mean by the term.
                All the above is true, and I'm aware of the shortcomings of some of these groups. But adding to scripture, or denying the trinity, or meaning something else by "Son of God" does not make them non-Christians. They may not be orthodox Christians, but that doesn't mean they aren't Christians.

                What criteria do you use for who is a true Christian? And why should that take preference over theirs?

                Roy
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  Yes, you did say that. Then I asked you to identify the many cults among hose I listed. You haven't done so, and I don't think you can. Instead, you're trying to muddy the waters regarding the definition of 'denomination'.
                  You have already been given 4, is that not enough 'many' to you?

                  If you can identify the "Cult groups", do so.
                  Already identified a few, but since you want to play games, let me do it again:

                  Jehovah Witnesses - are the watchtower publications scripture?
                  Mormons - is the Book of Mormon God's 'last testament' to humanity about how Jesus came to America after he was finished in Asia? Is there a living prophet on earth still that directly hears from God?
                  Christian Scientist - does Christ teach that the physical world is a delusion?
                  Unitarians - they reject the divinity of Christ.

                  I think you just threw together a 'list' and didn't bother to make sure your list was even accurate, before you decided to say something. Besides, that isn't even getting into how many on your 'list' are orders that submit to the authority of church bodies and are counted being officially part of that church body (sort of like how you are trying to say that US states would be their own countries because they all have their own government and just flat ignoring that they all submit to the US federal government).

                  If you can't, admit you were wrong.

                  Irony at its finest.

                  If you don't do either, I have no interest in further conversation with you.
                  4 groups named or are you going to try to make me stick to the strictest definition of 'many'? Believe it or not, I recognized most of your list already and did a quick check to see if they were part of another associated group, cult group, etc. What do you know... your list is shrinking and becoming ever smaller...

                  No, I did it from memory, as rogue suggested.
                  So you proved him right. You can't name 20 separate denominations. Thanks!
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    So have you read the theology of Christian scientist, Jehovah's Witnesses, or Mormons?
                    1) No, 2) some, 3) yes. Have you?
                    I wasn't aware that Jesus taught the physical world was a delusion or that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. This is just a few problems with your definition above. Do you want me to carry on?
                    Please do. Preeferrably starting with the "many" cults on my list.
                    Perhaps because the Franciscans are official affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church and submit to it and the pope's authority?
                    So what? Do you not think there can be denominations within denominations?
                    I think you just found a list online and are really hoping that the rest of us do not know how to use the internet to quickly look up information on your list.
                    You are wrong. Wrong about my source, anyway - if you actually did know how to use the internet you could easily have checked whether there is such a list.

                    Roy
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      1) No, 2) some, 3) yes. Have you?
                      Yep.

                      Please do. Preeferrably starting with the "many" cults on my list.So what?
                      How could a cult group, that doesn't teach what Christ taught be counted as a Christian?

                      Do you not think there can be denominations within denominations?
                      So you're just making up things now rather than just admitting you're wrong. Here is the definition of denomination:

                      a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church.

                      So how could the Franciscans be a 'denomination', when they are not an autonomous branch of the Christian church? Do you even know what a denomination is and isn't? A denomination has nothing to do with theology and two church's could be theological identical, but be counted as separate denominations, just because they operate autonomous from each other.

                      You are wrong. Wrong about my source, anyway - if you actually did know how to use the internet you could easily have checked whether there is such a list.
                      There's list out there that try to play the denomination canard and do list out the groups you tried to name. Most of them (like yourself it appears) don't actually know what a denomination is and isn't. A denomination has nothing to do with your definition or list. Much of your list are about as 'Christian' as you are and/or are official part of another church. Only about half your list, could actually fit the definition of being separate denominations. AKA you have proved Rogue's point quite well because few people actually know what a denomination is and isn't because they don't understand that a group that submits to an church body or authority, is not a denomination. Yet a single house church, that runs itself autonomously, can be counted as a denomination (depending on who you ask). Size nor theology has anything to do with what a 'denomination' is and isn't.
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        What criteria do you use for who is a true Christian? And why should that take preference over theirs?

                        Roy
                        I would accept anyone as Christian who can affirm that the Apostolic and Nicene Creed faithfully condenses the essential teachings of the Bible (although I would be willing to make some concessions regarding whether or not someone thinks that Christ was begotten or not*).

                        Why should it take preference over the criteria of unorthodox groups? It's quite simple really, us orthodox people got first dibs on the term Christians and these unorthodox people came later and tried to wrongfully steal the term for themselves.









                        *I mean, someone who believes that the Son is not begotten from the Father, but still believes that He is co-eternal and one with the Father would be wrong about the "not begotten"-part, but they wouldn't be wrong enough for me to call their salvation in to question.
                        ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          Yes, you did say that. Then I asked you to identify the many cults among hose I listed. You haven't done so, and I don't think you can. Instead, you're trying to muddy the waters regarding the definition of 'denomination'.
                          You have already been given 4, is that not enough 'many' to you?
                          Where? I noted that two were cults, and two more might be considered so. You haven't given anything except a side-track about what qualifies as a denomination.
                          Already identified a few, but since you want to play games, let me do it again:

                          Jehovah Witnesses - are the watchtower publications scripture?
                          Mormons - is the Book of Mormon God's 'last testament' to humanity about how Jesus came to America after he was finished in Asia? Is there a living prophet on earth still that directly hears from God?
                          Christian Scientist - does Christ teach that the physical world is a delusion?
                          Unitarians - they reject the divinity of Christ.
                          Ok, so you think those are cults too. That's 7. Any others?

                          I think you just threw together a 'list' and didn't bother to make sure your list was even accurate, before you decided to say something.
                          Well, yes. That was the point. I did it from memory, as rogue requested.
                          4 groups named or are you going to try to make me stick to the strictest definition of 'many'?
                          I see no reason not to. Are you retracting your claim?

                          Roy

                          P.S. It is telling that you claimed I was the one lacking in knowledge of religion, yet you are the one who is having to resort to internet searching.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                          Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            Where? I noted that two were cults, and two more might be considered so. You haven't given anything except a side-track about what qualifies as a denomination.
                            It is called 'defining your terms'. You should try it sometime.

                            Ok, so you think those are cults too. That's 7. Any others?
                            If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know what one was and what one wasn't.

                            Well, yes. That was the point. I did it from memory, as rogue requested. I see no reason not to. Are you retracting your claim?
                            And as it has pretty well established, only about half of your 'list' could be counted as a separate denomination. Which kind of proves Rogue's point.

                            P.S. It is telling that you claimed I was the one lacking in knowledge of religion, yet you are the one who is having to resort to internet searching.
                            It is called fact checking. It is what a good debater or somebody who wants to be absolutely sure she is giving correct facts does. Human memories can end up being fallible and mixing up facts. I always search around for something, if I want to make a point, no matter how sure I am that I am right. If people were to do this more often, a lot less mistakes would be made. A better way might be to make a list, from memory, and go and check, just to make absolutely certain that your list is factually correct.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Maybe someone should move this whole "30 000 different denomination"-discussion to a thread of its own? It's strayed quite a bit from the original topic of this thread, IMO.
                              ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                So you're just making up things now rather than just admitting you're wrong. Here is the definition of denomination:

                                a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church.
                                Ooh! Dictionary wars!

                                Here's the line that follows that definition here: A branch of any religion.
                                SOED includes this: "A religious sect or body designated by a distinctive name".

                                So how could the Franciscans be a 'denomination', when they are not an autonomous branch of the Christian church?
                                Quite easily, given the alternative definitions you deliberately omitted.

                                Incidentally, the definition you isolated is clearly not the only one since it doesn't recognise that other religions, such as Judaism, also have different denominations.
                                Do you even know what a denomination is and isn't?
                                Yes. It's a named subgroup of a religion. There may be other definitions you prefer because they support your argument, but that's the one I was using.
                                AKA you have proved Rogue's point quite well ...
                                I'll let rogue decide that.

                                You may now have the last word - I'm no longer interested in communicating with you.

                                Roy
                                Last edited by Roy; 02-22-2015, 10:51 AM.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                                Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                                Comment

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