Split off of Wilkowsky's posts in Christianity 201

[Wilkowsky]

*notice by lilpixieofterror*

Christianity 201 is for Orthodox Christians only. Thanks!

[foudroyant]

Hello Wilkowsky,

What's preventing you from experiencing the love and forgiveness from the resurrected Lord?

[Christianbookworm]

Indeed. The Resurrection is the best explanation of all the facts surrounding the empty tomb and changed lives of the disciples.

[Wilkowsky]

Hello Wilkowsky,

What's preventing you from experiencing the love and forgiveness from the resurrected Lord?

It just seems like all this Christianity gig is emotional thing. Like even if there are some reasonable arguments they are there to support a faith that is already there and there are few to none people who came to Christianity by cold and honest assessment of facts. That's how I feel about it anyway.

I like Christianity and it's message, but just because it's nice doesn't mean it's true. And I don't want to believe falsehoods.

[KingsGambit]

It just seems like all this Christianity gig is emotional thing. Like even if there are some reasonable arguments they are there to support a faith that is already there and there are few to none people who came to Christianity by cold and honest assessment of facts. That's how I feel about it anyway.

I like Christianity and it's message, but just because it's nice doesn't mean it's true. And I don't want to believe falsehoods.

Would you mind if we started a thread in General Theistics 201 to talk about it there?

[Teallaura]

Would you mind if we started a thread in General Theistics 201 to talk about it there?

Split this one if he agrees.

[Christianbookworm]

I find it very logical.

[Wilkowsky]

Would you mind if we started a thread in General Theistics 201 to talk about it there?

Sure, why not.

[Wilkowsky]

So basically my problem with Christianity and actually with everything else that's controversial and not definitely agreed upon (does that make sense to you?) is that I just can't decide. There are just so many arguments and facts and it's impossible to check all the information there is and it's sooo easy to fall for rhetoric from any side of the debate. You know, atheist folks often create this kind of reason-aura around themselves, like they are the only rational people and others are just superstitious morons. On the other hand maybe this isn't completely baseless? I mean how many Christians or generally religious people you know that simply don't care about backing up their worldview with reason? I know too many. Yet again this doesn't mean their worldview is false. And yet again even those Christians that can support their faith with reasonable arguments sometimes just seem like they are Christians for personal reasons (for example William Lane Craig and his Milky Way story), just justifying their presupposed belief, I feel like they start with conclusion and then pick facts that support it.

I just try to be as neutral and unbiased as is possible but I just can't. I am biased. I just am. How can I make a decision? There are so many people that play Wise Men and they all have different worldviews and come to different conclusions. Who can I trust if I can't ultimately even trust myself? And even if I reject reason and just pray for some sign, and let's suppose I get a sign, how can I know it's not either some kind of delusion or some being opposing genuine God that tries to lead me astray? Like both Christians and Mormons claim to be led by the Holy Spirit but that obviously can't be true unless God cares much much much less about doctrine than we think.

I feel trapped. Like every move I can make is wrong. And God, if there is one, is just waiting there to kill me and then send me only he knows where for punishment because I didn't figured out the right answers. Sometimes I feel like he's some kind of cynical prankster who's purposefully confusing us with all those different ideas just so at the Judgement he can say something like: "Sorry guys, the cult of great cat god was the right answer. Bummer, you are all going to hell". That's probably just my frustration though.

[Jedidiah]

I do not believe that Christianity is actually an emotional "thing." While the emotional aspect is very big, emotions are not stable enough to last for any really long period of time. You can see the truth of this by looking at marriages that are based only on feelings. Emotions involved in Christianity arise from the realization and relief of understanding the truth, they do not bring about Christian faith nor maintain it over the long haul.

God is not waiting to do you harm. Instead of judging Him "simply trust Him."

[foudroyant]

Wilkowski,

Thanks for sharing how you feel concerning who God is and what He expects.
I think I remember from the other thread that you wrote that you wished you could believe in Christ's resurrection. Is this correct?
I suppose I can ask many questions to you but I think the most basic one right now would be:
What is your understanding of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus?

Thanks

[One Bad Pig]

So basically my problem with Christianity and actually with everything else that's controversial and not definitely agreed upon (does that make sense to you?) is that I just can't decide. There are just so many arguments and facts and it's impossible to check all the information there is and it's sooo easy to fall for rhetoric from any side of the debate. You know, atheist folks often create this kind of reason-aura around themselves, like they are the only rational people and others are just superstitious morons. On the other hand maybe this isn't completely baseless? I mean how many Christians or generally religious people you know that simply don't care about backing up their worldview with reason? I know too many. Yet again this doesn't mean their worldview is false. And yet again even those Christians that can support their faith with reasonable arguments sometimes just seem like they are Christians for personal reasons (for example William Lane Craig and his Milky Way story), just justifying their presupposed belief, I feel like they start with conclusion and then pick facts that support it.

The "deconversion stories" I've read have generally not had much of a reasonable or rational basis; I find that atheists tend to like the idea of using reason but aren't very good at actually doing so. Reason says that people do not rise from the dead. On the other hand, reason says that people do not submit to a tortuous death in defense of something they know to be a lie. Furthermore, if we were created from the dust of the earth, then raising someone from the dead is comparatively simple. As far as I'm concerned, reason and a belief in the supernatural are entirely compatible.

I just try to be as neutral and unbiased as is possible but I just can't. I am biased. I just am. How can I make a decision? There are so many people that play Wise Men and they all have different worldviews and come to different conclusions. Who can I trust if I can't ultimately even trust myself? And even if I reject reason and just pray for some sign, and let's suppose I get a sign, how can I know it's not either some kind of delusion or some being opposing genuine God that tries to lead me astray? Like both Christians and Mormons claim to be led by the Holy Spirit but that obviously can't be true unless God cares much much much less about doctrine than we think.

We're all biased in one way or another. I don't think you should reject reason or to pray for a sign. As far as I am aware, Christians are the only ones who are enjoined to test the spirits, to see if they are from God.

I feel trapped. Like every move I can make is wrong. And God, if there is one, is just waiting there to kill me and then send me only he knows where for punishment because I didn't figured out the right answers. Sometimes I feel like he's some kind of cynical prankster who's purposefully confusing us with all those different ideas just so at the Judgement he can say something like: "Sorry guys, the cult of great cat god was the right answer. Bummer, you are all going to hell". That's probably just my frustration though.

In the words of Jesus, "Ask, and you shall receive. Seek, and you shall find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you." Seeking is the right move. No one is expected to figure out the right answers on his own, though. Ideally the Church is the deposit of the tradition of the apostles, learned from Jesus Himself.

I would encourage you to simply pray "Lord, have mercy on me" - and trust that He will. If faith the size of a tiny mustard seed is sufficient to cause an entire mountain to be thrown into the sea, then it can't take much faith at all to attain salvation.

[Wilkowsky]

I do not believe that Christianity is actually an emotional "thing." While the emotional aspect is very big, emotions are not stable enough to last for any really long period of time. You can see the truth of this by looking at marriages that are based only on feelings. Emotions involved in Christianity arise from the realization and relief of understanding the truth, they do not bring about Christian faith nor maintain it over the long haul.

God is not waiting to do you harm. Instead of judging Him "simply trust Him."

So you say emotions arise from belief in Christianity and not the other way around? Well OK, maybe I'm just looking at those cases where it was the other way around and didn't last for long and wrongly conclude that if some people believed on emotional grounds then the belief itself is an emotional thing.

Alright, but still what other grounds are there to build your belief on? Maybe tradition - being raised in a Christian family? But then what if you were raised in a Muslim or Jewish tradition? And I myself were raised in this sort of Christian family where Christianity is just a culture, not a way of life. Maybe reason then? But what about all the evidence against religion? What about materialism and the fact that whatever happens with your physical brain influences your mind? That pretty much undercuts any spirituality.

These are just kind of questions I've been struggling with lately. And sadly I'm leaning more and more towards materialism. But then again I'm a kind of a pessimistic type of person so maybe I'm just choosing the belief that I'm more comfortable with?

How can I trust God if i can't trust myself? I mean, how can I know I'm not just deluded? Or if there is something like a spiritual realm, how can I know I'm not being led astray by some kind of spiritual enemy of God? How can i be sure I'm not being led astray to Christianity and it's Islam or Judaism or Bahaism or Cargo Cults or whatever that is one true religion? How can i even know if there is something like a One True Religion?

[Wilkowsky]

Wilkowski,

Thanks for sharing how you feel concerning who God is and what He expects.
I think I remember from the other thread that you wrote that you wished you could believe in Christ's resurrection. Is this correct?
I suppose I can ask many questions to you but I think the most basic one right now would be:
What is your understanding of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus?

Thanks

I'm not sure if I understand. You're asking me what I understand by the Resurrection? Or what do I know about the Resurrection? I know there are people, rational people that are arguing for the Resurrection based on evidence, like Michael Licona, Gary Habermas, N.T Wright, William Lane Craig. But I also know there are people who argue against the reality of the Resurrection, like Richard Carrier. I don't agree with all that he's saying and I do think he's a little bit parallelomanic but he's got a point with early Christians being schizotypal personalities.

[Wilkowsky]

The "deconversion stories" I've read have generally not had much of a reasonable or rational basis; I find that atheists tend to like the idea of using reason but aren't very good at actually doing so. Reason says that people do not rise from the dead. On the other hand, reason says that people do not submit to a tortuous death in defense of something they know to be a lie. Furthermore, if we were created from the dust of the earth, then raising someone from the dead is comparatively simple. As far as I'm concerned, reason and a belief in the supernatural are entirely compatible.

Reason also says that people may submit to a torturous death in defense of something they know to be a lie if they were living with that lie for a significant portion of their lives and they either began truly believing it or didn't have any other kind of life to get back to so they have chosen death. Besides, for how many of those who supposedly have seen risen Jesus do you have evidence for them dying a torturous death?

In the words of Jesus, "Ask, and you shall receive. Seek, and you shall find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you." Seeking is the right move. No one is expected to figure out the right answers on his own, though. Ideally the Church is the deposit of the tradition of the apostles, learned from Jesus Himself.

Which one? Catholic? One of the protestant churches? I won't go as far as some do to say that all of those something-thousand denominations are claiming that they are the only true church and the only path to salvation (I know that's not true) but the infighting among Christians is not helpful at all in determining if that's the one true religion.

I would encourage you to simply pray "Lord, have mercy on me" - and trust that He will. If faith the size of a tiny mustard seed is sufficient to cause an entire mountain to be thrown into the sea, then it can't take much faith at all to attain salvation.

Thanks, I'll see what happens.