Announcement

Collapse

General Theistics 101 Guidelines

This area is open for nontheists and theists to interact on issues of theism and faith in a civilized manner. We ask that nontheist participation respect the theistic views of others and not seek to undermine theism in general, or advocate for nontheism. Such posts are more suited for and allowable in Apologetics 301 with very little restriction.

The moderators of this area are given great discretion to determine if a particular thread or comment would more appropriately belong in another forum area.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

How old was Jesus when . . .

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How old was Jesus when . . .

    When Luke (3:23) said He was "about thirty years of age." He began His ministry in 28 AD (Luke 3:1). Many suppose He was 30. Now He was born before the death of Herod, Matthew 2:15. And He was then a toddler, Matthew 2:11. His ministry being a minimum of 2 years, three Passovers, John 2:13, John 6:4 and John 11:54-55. Making the crucifixion in 30 AD.

    Herod is dated to have died in 4 BC. Jesus would have to been born likely no latter that 5 BC. Making Him at least a 1 year old as a toddler. His ministry beginning in 28 AD would ;make Him to be at about 30 to be 32 years old. And then about 34 when crucified.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  • #2
    I personally am of the opinion that they got the date of Herod’s death wrong. It’s very complicated, involving lunar eclipses, very tight timeframes, and the possibility that his successors fudged their accessions. So I think Herod died in 2 (or possibly 1) BC and that Jesus was born in 3 BC. That would make the registration/census of Quirinius the registration that took place in preparation for Caesar Augustus being named Pater Patriae in 2 BC in honor of his 60th birthday, his 25 years as Augustus, and the 750th anniversary of the founding of Rome. He would have especially wanted anyone with any pretensions to a throne (such as all the descendants of King David) to register their oaths of loyalty to him as supreme ruler, hence the trip to Bethlehem before his celebratory year began.
    And it’s possible that the phrase “about thirty” means that Jesus was about to turn thirty, i.e., 29 years and many months. Thirty is when men could begin serving in the temple, so if Jesus wasn’t quite thirty, that would explain his telling Mary, “My time is not yet come,” in Cana. He could have celebrated his 30th birthday just before the Passover, when he arrived in Jerusalem and had his big public debut when he cleansed the Temple.

    But that’s all just an interesting notion to me. I have no problem with the time frame you suggest, either.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Just Passing Through View Post
      I personally am of the opinion that they got the date of Herod’s death wrong. It’s very complicated, involving lunar eclipses, very tight timeframes, and the possibility that his successors fudged their accessions. So I think Herod died in 2 (or possibly 1) BC and that Jesus was born in 3 BC. That would make the registration/census of Quirinius the registration that took place in preparation for Caesar Augustus being named Pater Patriae in 2 BC in honor of his 60th birthday, his 25 years as Augustus, and the 750th anniversary of the founding of Rome. He would have especially wanted anyone with any pretensions to a throne (such as all the descendants of King David) to register their oaths of loyalty to him as supreme ruler, hence the trip to Bethlehem before his celebratory year began.
      And it’s possible that the phrase “about thirty” means that Jesus was about to turn thirty, i.e., 29 years and many months. Thirty is when men could begin serving in the temple, so if Jesus wasn’t quite thirty, that would explain his telling Mary, “My time is not yet come,” in Cana. He could have celebrated his 30th birthday just before the Passover, when he arrived in Jerusalem and had his big public debut when he cleansed the Temple.

      But that’s all just an interesting notion to me. I have no problem with the time frame you suggest, either.
      If Jesus was born in 3 BC then He would have been 30 years when (28 AD Luke 3:1) Luke referred to Him being about 30. Making Him to be 32 at time of the crucifixion, Him having about a 2 year ministry.
      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Just Passing Through View Post
        I personally am of the opinion that they got the date of Herod’s death wrong. It’s very complicated, involving lunar eclipses, very tight timeframes, and the possibility that his successors fudged their accessions. So I think Herod died in 2 (or possibly 1) BC and that Jesus was born in 3 BC. That would make the registration/census of Quirinius the registration that took place in preparation for Caesar Augustus being named Pater Patriae in 2 BC in honor of his 60th birthday, his 25 years as Augustus, and the 750th anniversary of the founding of Rome. He would have especially wanted anyone with any pretensions to a throne (such as all the descendants of King David) to register their oaths of loyalty to him as supreme ruler, hence the trip to Bethlehem before his celebratory year began.
        And it’s possible that the phrase “about thirty” means that Jesus was about to turn thirty, i.e., 29 years and many months. Thirty is when men could begin serving in the temple, so if Jesus wasn’t quite thirty, that would explain his telling Mary, “My time is not yet come,” in Cana. He could have celebrated his 30th birthday just before the Passover, when he arrived in Jerusalem and had his big public debut when he cleansed the Temple.
        The high priest Matthias ben Theophilus, had a seminal discharge in his sleep, a wet dream during the night immediately before the day of Yom Kippur, which made him ceremonially unclean and thus unable to perform his duties as high priest during the next day. For this reason Herod had him replaced with a relative, Joseph ben Ellemus, on a temporary basis. (Josephus, Antiquities, Book 17 (Niese 17:165-7; Whiston xvii.6.4))

        Although the high priest is permitted to perform any priestly function, the only function which he, and he alone, is required to perform is sacrificing on Yom Kippur and entering the Holy of Holies.

        It was also about that time that Herod had Rabbi Matthias ben Margalothus put to death by burning. On the night of the execution of Matthias ben Margalothus there was a lunar eclipse. (Josephus, Antiquities, Book 17 (Niese 17:165-7; Whiston xvii.6.4))

        But which one? It had to take place at least a few months before Passover, April 11, 4 BC. There was a lunar eclipse on the night of March 13, only 29 days earlier, but too little time for the events which took place between the eclipse and the Passover of 4 BC.

        Josephus refers to that day as “that day when the fast was to be celebrated”. This could only refer to Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. The last Yom Kippur prior to the Passover of 4 BC was on September 13, 5 BC. There was a total lunar eclipse two days later, on the night of September 15-16. Totality lasted 99 minutes, beginning around midnight, while the moon was nearly directly overhead.

        Herod's death would have to have occurred after September 15, 5 BC but at least a few months before Passover, April 11, 4 BC.

        According to a Greek inscription found near Neapolis in Galatia, Augustus required all of its citizens to sign a loyalty oath on March 8 of his twelfth consulship, which was 5 BC. (Allen Chester Johnson, Paul Robinson Coleman-Norton and Frank Card Bourne. Ancient Roman Statutes, A Translation With Introduction, Commentary, Glossary and Index. (Austin, Texas: University of Texas Press; 1961. Reprinted Clark, New Jersey: The Lawbook Exchange, Ltd.; 2003) 127.) If that was about the same time as the census in Judea, that would put the birth of Jesus in 5 BC.

        Jesus would have been nearly 32 years old or older by Passover, AD 28.
        herod eclipse.gif
        Note: 1 BC is considered Year 0000 by calculation. 5 BC is Year -0004.
        Last edited by Faber; 03-21-2018, 12:39 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Josephus says that shortly before he got sick, Herod replaced Matthias with Joazar as high priest because of Matthias’ role in an insurrection.
          Then he adds an aside to say that there had been another time when he had replaced Matthias temporarily, and he tells that story. But then he gets back to the present story of Matthias’ permanent replacement and says there was a lunar eclipse that night, the night he was replaced for good, not the night before Joseph ben Ellemus was a one day high priest.
          Your version would require that ben Ellemus was high priest one day, and Matthias was priest again the next day, and Matthias was then replaced permanently the day after that, and the eclipse occurred that same day.

          The twelfth consulship of Augustus began in 5 BC and extends to 2 BC. However, the book you refer to specifically dates the Gangra oath of loyalty to the third year of the consulship, 3 BC, which could make it the same registration that I mentioned, in preparation for his big celebration.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Just Passing Through View Post
            Josephus says that shortly before he got sick, Herod replaced Matthias with Joazar as high priest because of Matthias’ role in an insurrection.
            Then he adds an aside to say that there had been another time when he had replaced Matthias temporarily, and he tells that story. But then he gets back to the present story of Matthias’ permanent replacement and says there was a lunar eclipse that night, the night he was replaced for good, not the night before Joseph ben Ellemus was a one day high priest.
            Your version would require that ben Ellemus was high priest one day, and Matthias was priest again the next day, and Matthias was then replaced permanently the day after that, and the eclipse occurred that same day.

            The twelfth consulship of Augustus began in 5 BC and extends to 2 BC. However, the book you refer to specifically dates the Gangra oath of loyalty to the third year of the consulship, 3 BC, which could make it the same registration that I mentioned, in preparation for his big celebration.
            Consulships lasted only one year. The twelfth consulship of Augustus was 5 BC. The thirteehth consulship was 3 BC.

            As to "the third year": The translation of the first line of the oath reads, "In the time of emperor Caesar Augustus, son of a god, during the twelfth consulship, in the third year, on the day before the Nones of March, in Gangris in . . ." There is a note, "The reference to the third year pertains to the third year after this part of Paphlagonia was incorporated within the Roman province of Galatia (in 6/5 BCE)." See link.http://philipharland.com/greco-roman...nessmen-3-bce/

            On the two Matthiases, this may be confusing, but there were two different persons, both named Matthias, in these accounts.

            * Prominent Rabbis Judas ben Saripheus and Matthias ben Margalothus, and their students mistakenly hear that Herod had died. They tear down the golden eagle which Herod had set up in the temple. (Josephus, Antiquities, Book 17 (Niese 17:155; Whiston xvii.6.3))

            * Another Matthias, the high priest, is replaced by Herod with Joseph son of Ellemus, the brother of the high priest, in order to perform the sacred priestly duties. (Josephus, Antiquities, Book 17 (Niese 17:164-5; Whiston xvii.6.4))

            * Herod orders the death of Rabbis Judas and Matthias ben Margalothus and their students. Rabbi Matthias ben Margalothus is put to death by burning. (Josephus, Antiquities, Book 17 (Niese 17:167; Whiston xvii.6.4))

            * A lunar eclipse took place that night after the execution of Rabbi Matthias ben Margalothus. (Ibid.)

            The Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Yoma, folio 12b (Epstein, Rabbi Dr. Isidore, ed. The Babylonian Talmud. London: Soncino Press, 1935-1952.), reads,
            Originally posted by Epstein, Rabbi Dr. Isidore, ed.
            The Babylonian Talmud. London: Soncino Press, 1935-1952]Our Rabbis have taught: If a disqualifying accident occurred to him, and another was appointed in his place then the former returns [afterwards] to his office, whilst the latter has upon himself all the obligations toughing the high priesthood, this is the opinion of R. Meir. R. Jose says: The first returns to his office, the second becomes unfit for the office of either high priest or common priest. R, Jose said: It happened to Joseph b. Elam of Sepphoris that after a disqualifying accident happened to the high priest, he was appointed in the former's place, and the Sages said: The former returns to his office, the latter is unfit to be either a common priest or high priest.
            Footnote 14 adds,
            It happened to Joseph ben Ulam of Sepphoris ... who served for an hour (or: little while) as high priest and as he went out he said to the King: My lord and King: Whose were the bullock and the goat which were offered up to-day, did they come from me or from the high priest? The King understood (the trend) of his question and he replied: What is this, ben Ulam? Are you not satisfied with having served in the high priest's office for one hour before Him Who spoke and the world was created, so that you seek to obtain the high priest's office for yourself? In that moment ben Ulam understood that he was deposed from the high priesthood.
            Last edited by Faber; 03-21-2018, 12:20 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              In Luke 2:42, "And when he was twelve years old, . . ." Actually according to our reckoning He was 11.

              His age of 12 is based on the day He was born being year 1 not 0.
              1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 not 0 1 2 3 . . .

              The calendar AD begins with 1 AD. 0 AD is 1 BC, being there is no year zero.

              [Jesus was born before Herod's death. ]
              Last edited by 37818; 03-22-2018, 09:22 AM.
              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

              Comment


              • #8
                As to "the third year": The translation of the first line of the oath reads, "In the time of emperor Caesar Augustus, son of a god, during the twelfth consulship, in the third year, on the day before the Nones of March, in Gangris in . . ." There is a note, "The reference to the third year pertains to the third year after this part of Paphlagonia was incorporated within the Roman province of Galatia (in 6/5 BCE)." See link.http://philipharland.com/greco-roman...nessmen-3-bce/
                You are correct that consulships lasted one year, but your link also understands the oath to have taken place in 3 BC. 6/5 BC was when Paphlagonia was incorporated, so 4/3 BC would be the third year, and March 8 would be the latter half, i.e., 3 BC. Of course, that site could be wrong, and Paphlagonia may have been incorporated in 8/7BC. Or the census may have been undertaken under orders that Augustus issued as consul, but which were only carried out two years later.

                But if it was 5BC, it seems it would have been part of a census that every new Roman province had to undertake when they became a province. As such, it would not fit “Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.” A census would not have involved Judea, and an empire-wide oath of loyalty makes more sense in 3BC.

                Josephus Antiquities XVII: But as for Herod, he dealt more mildly with others [of the assembly] but he deprived Matthias of the high priesthood, as in part an occasion of this action, and made Joazar, who was Matthias's wife's brother, high priest in his stead. Now it happened, that during the time of the high priesthood of this Matthias, there was another person made high priest for a single day, that very day which the Jews observed as a fast. The occasion was this: This Matthias the high priest, on the night before that day when the fast was to be celebrated, seemed, in a dream, to have conversation with his wife; and because he could not officiate himself on that account, Joseph, the son of Ellemus, his kinsman, assisted him in that sacred office. But Herod deprived this Matthias of the high priesthood, and burnt the other Matthias, who had raised the sedition, with his companions, alive. And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon.
                Matthias the high priest was deprived of the priesthood on the day of the eclipse or at least as part of the same occasion. This same Matthias the high priest was the one who, at some earlier point in his priesthood, gave up the post for one day to Joseph ben Ellemus. It doesn’t sound to me like it’s talking about two things that happened just two days apart.
                Last edited by Just Passing Through; 03-22-2018, 11:03 AM. Reason: fixing a bad quote tag

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Just Passing Through View Post
                  You are correct that consulships lasted one year, but your link also understands the oath to have taken place in 3 BC. 6/5 BC was when Paphlagonia was incorporated, so 4/3 BC would be the third year, and March 8 would be the latter half, i.e., 3 BC. Of course, that site could be wrong, and Paphlagonia may have been incorporated in 8/7BC. Or the census may have been undertaken under orders that Augustus issued as consul, but which were only carried out two years later.

                  But if it was 5BC, it seems it would have been part of a census that every new Roman province had to undertake when they became a province. As such, it would not fit “Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.” A census would not have involved Judea, and an empire-wide oath of loyalty makes more sense in 3BC.



                  Matthias the high priest was deprived of the priesthood on the day of the eclipse or at least as part of the same occasion. This same Matthias the high priest was the one who, at some earlier point in his priesthood, gave up the post for one day to Joseph ben Ellemus. It doesn’t sound to me like it’s talking about two things that happened just two days apart.
                  Ok. And this has to do with Jesus being how old when?

                  http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fo...ld-History-201
                  . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I note that the Jewish Encyclopedia, on Matthias ben Theophilus (Not the Matthias in AD 65) connects him with the Matthias who was implicated with Golden Eagle incident (see here) but Josephus clearly distinguishes between the two.

                    As for the census, Client kingdoms were free from Roman taxation and military inscription. But they were still obligated to swear allegiance to Caesar. But the loyalty oath covered not only the empire, but provinces and client kingdoms also. The King James Bible states that the census was to cover "all the world". The New American Standard Bible reduces it to "all the inhabited earth". Although there is not any textual reason for the New International Version to add the word "Roman", it makes more historical sense. Even Augustus’s Res Gestae begins, “Below is a copy of the acts of the Deified Augustus by which he placed the whole world under the sovereignty of the Roman people.” Augustus wasn't demanding a census of Antarctica, or of the American Indians, or of the Far East. It was limited to the Roman Empire, its provinces, and client kingdoms. Herod's Kingdom was a client kingdom, and as such, Augustus did not have the authority to impose a Roman tax, nor a military draft.

                    The twelfth consulship of Augustus was in the year 5 BC. Gangra was the capital city of Paphlagonia until the death of King Deiotarus Philadelphus, at which time his kingdom was absorbed into Galatia, which had become a Roman province in 25 BC. Sir William Ramsey (The Historical Geography of Asia Minor, vol. IV. (London: John Murray; 1890) 194-195.) follows Joachim Marquardt (Handbuch der Römischen Alterthümer. (Leipzig: Verlag von S. Herzel, 1881) 359) in setting the year at 7 BC. This would make 5 BC the third year that Gangra was in the province of Galatia. Some translators, however, take “third year” to refer to the third year since the twelfth consulship of Augustus, setting the year at 3 BC.

                    Still my contention is that Jesus was probably born before Passover in 4 BC, probably no more than a year. So when he began his ministry, probably just before Passover in AD 28, he had to be at least 31 years of age, probably 32.

                    Sorta like Solomon's laver. 10 cubits in diameter and 30 cubits in circumference. Calculations would make the circumference about 31 or 32, but 30 was close enough for the Bible.
                    Last edited by Faber; 03-22-2018, 12:29 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My first comments were in reference to the possibility of a census/registration/oath of loyalty in 5 BC. If such a census exists, then Jesus was probably born at that time. I don’t rule it out, but I was questioning whether it’s correctly dated and whether it's applicable to the census mentioned by Luke.

                      My second comment pertains to Faber’s thoughts that the lunar eclipse that took place shortly before Herod’s death was the one in September of 5BC. Again, I don’t rule it out, I just didn’t think that the reference to Matthias gives it much if any support. That could still be the correct eclipse even if Josephus' reference to the one-day high-priesthood happened at some earlier festival. If he is correct, that would also support an early 5BC date for Jesus’ birth.

                      I’m still proposing a 3BC birth, not because I’m convinced it’s correct, just because it would fit well with what the early church fathers proposed (and they could have been wrong). To hold to a 3BC birth, I would have the burden of proof overturning the traditional dating of Herod’s death in 4BC. I don’t think I’ve met that burden, but it may at least be plausible.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Luke wrote "about," ωσεί meaning approximately. And assuming He was 31 in 28 AD that would make Him to be 36 in 33 AD. (The 18th century proposed date for a Friday crucifixion).
                        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          When Luke (3:23) said He was "about thirty years of age." He began His ministry in 28 AD (Luke 3:1). Many suppose He was 30. Now He was born before the death of Herod, Matthew 2:15. And He was then a toddler, Matthew 2:11. His ministry being a minimum of 2 years, three Passovers, John 2:13, John 6:4 and John 11:54-55. Making the crucifixion in 30 AD.

                          Herod is dated to have died in 4 BC. Jesus would have to been born likely no latter that 5 BC. Making Him at least a 1 year old as a toddler. His ministry beginning in 28 AD would ;make Him to be at about 30 to be 32 years old. And then about 34 when crucified.
                          Just a wild guess based on nothing - but, could St Luke perhaps have had this in mind: “David was thirty years old when he became king, and he reigned forty years.” ?

                          https://biblehub.com/2_samuel/5-4.htm

                          The notion of Jesus as Davidic King is found in St Luke as well as in St Matthew.

                          See also
                          https://biblehub.com/genesis/41-46.htm - Jesus is to some extent a Joseph-like figure.
                          Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 12-07-2019, 02:21 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            When Luke (3:23) said He was "about thirty years of age." He began His ministry in 28 AD (Luke 3:1). Many suppose He was 30. Now He was born before the death of Herod, Matthew 2:15. And He was then a toddler, Matthew 2:11. His ministry being a minimum of 2 years, three Passovers, John 2:13, John 6:4 and John 11:54-55. Making the crucifixion in 30 AD.

                            Herod is dated to have died in 4 BC. Jesus would have to been born likely no latter that 5 BC. Making Him at least a 1 year old as a toddler. His ministry beginning in 28 AD would ;make Him to be at about 30 to be 32 years old. And then about 34 when crucified.
                            Using your own logic then Luke's birth narrative must be wrong.
                            "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What would be wrong about Luke's narrative? If Herod died around 5-4 BC, then Jesus would have been born at the latest around 6-5 BC. He woul have been about age 33 when he began his ministry, if that was AD 28. and probably close to 35 if he died AD 30, which is the most commonly accepted year of his crucifixion.

                              Comment

                              widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                              Working...
                              X