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Billy Graham and Jews, Christianity and Judaism

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  • #31
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    You are right, many do not send their children to a liberal college, and often the expressed purpose is to avoid inculcating those values.
    Many do too.

    If the church which has the vacation bible school is also a place where those ideas exist and go unchallenged, the ideas in effect become part of the backdrop of "acceptable ideas" which one can hold.
    I go and keep friends with Mr Rosenthal. . . and people of that sort, you know. And all, I mean not all Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know I am friendly to Israel. But they don't know how I feel about what they are doing to this country. And I have no power, no way to handle them, but I would stand up if under proper circumstances.
    Like in earlier post, approach of mine on controversial stuff is very, very simple! First question of mine is "is it true, or not?" Also, "how do you know that?"

    If you want to discuss with me statements of Graham, then you'll need to answer questions!
    Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      No thinking person can in any way support antisemitism, or the distortion of scripture that may be used in such support.
      Would you describe Billy Graham as a non-thinking person? The version of anti-Semitism expressed by Graham was not dependent on scriptural support, but an explanation of how certain groups and individuals impact events and the affairs of our country.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
        Many do too.



        Like in earlier post, approach of mine on controversial stuff is very, very simple! First question of mine is "is it true, or not?" Also, "how do you know that?"

        If you want to discuss with me statements of Graham, then you'll need to answer questions!
        I thought I answered your question. People place their children into situations in which certain ideas are nurtured, sometimes intentionally or not. So a liberal or a conservative might send their child off to a liberal school.

        I take it that you find it fitting to avoid the liberal school. So in the same way, ought one avoid the Christian church where such ideas flourish? Or avoid a church where such ideas exist unchallenged? Or a church where those ideas are seen as consistent with a healthy, biblically based teaching?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          I take it that you find it fitting to avoid the liberal school. So in the same way, ought one avoid the Christian church where such ideas flourish? Or avoid a church where such ideas exist unchallenged? Or a church where those ideas are seen as consistent with a healthy, biblically based teaching?
          How is demi supposed to answer questions of yours?

          What are 'such ideas'? Are they true or false??
          Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
            How is demi supposed to answer questions of yours?

            What are 'such ideas'? Are they true or false??
            The ideas in question are those which suggest that there is a conspiracy of Jews who manipulate history and/or society.

            It seems that some Christians come down on the side of agreeing with it, others disagree with it. Someone earlier in this thread said that he has not seen the expression of such ideas (within the church). I admit that response surprised me, because I find it commonplace and unremarkable. And few Christians, born again and in love with the Lord will reject those ideas when the come across them. Which suggests to me that they are accepted by members of the Body of Christ.

            So I guess my next question to you would be: Are those ideas true or false? I suppose that you can continue the cat and mouse game and avoid answering.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              The ideas in question are those which suggest that there is a conspiracy of Jews who manipulate history and/or society.

              It seems that some Christians come down on the side of agreeing with it, others disagree with it
              Seems so!

              So I guess my next question to you would be: Are those ideas true or false? I suppose that you can continue the cat and mouse game and avoid answering.
              How is demi to know about ideas of unknown US bible school christians? You condemned 'those ideas', do you think they are false?
              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                Seems so!



                How is demi to know about ideas of unknown US bible school christians? You condemned 'those ideas', do you think they are false?
                You do make an excellent point, Demi. Just as a conservative Christian ought to eschew the liberal school on the premise that inculcating those ideas is something to be avoided, perhaps the vacation Bible school ought to be avoided. The liberal school provides an atmosphere in which objectionable ideas are tolerated and even fostered, the evangelical church provides the atmosphere in which the ideas are tolerated and even fostered.

                It is generally not known precisely which courses at a liberal school might be acceptable, yet it is appropriate to reject that style of education. It is not known precisely which churches do teach such ideas on the Jews. Since so many within the church are not able to recognize it as wrong, that suggests they are unprepared to address those ideas. If they are not addressed and rejected.

                Billy Graham was a contemporary of both Fr Coughlin and Bishop Sheen. Both Coughlin and Sheen opposed the nativist movements, with Coughlin migrating to a populist form of anti-Semitism, and Sheen vehemently denouncing anti-Semitism in the US. It is unlikely that Graham was unaware of their stands, Coughlin and Sheen were early media superstars. Graham's public face was always one of nurturing and feeding the spiritual, so his views, expressed in private, were surprising in that they sounded like Fr Coughlin.

                Sheen and Coughlin were rooted in and formed by the American Christian (and Catholic) experience. But had very different views. Graham was also formed by the Christian culture in the American south (a native of Carolina). American Christianity has always exhibited a strong stand for populist forms of anti-Semitism as well as opposition to such ideas. We can pretend that such ideas do not exist within the Body of Christ here in America. But Graham and Coughlin show that we are susceptible to such ideas. And Graham and Sheen show that we can also reject such ideas.

                That same tension exists today. While the turmoil within the Catholic Church of the last seventy years has had many unfortunate effects, but it has pushed those ideas to the fringes. American evangelicalism has yet to address such ideas. They have not been pushed to the fringe, the ideas exist, albeit uneasily, within the center, existing without notice and accepted as part of the core.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                  ...

                  That same tension exists today. While the turmoil within the Catholic Church of the last seventy years has had many unfortunate effects, but it has pushed those ideas to the fringes. American evangelicalism has yet to address such ideas. They have not been pushed to the fringe, the ideas exist, albeit uneasily, within the center, existing without notice and accepted as part of the core.
                  The possibility that anti-semitic ideas exist at the "center" and "core" of American evangelicalism is bizarre to me. I have *never* in 38 years encountered such. As I said earlier, the only place I've encountered, even slightly, such views was from older-generation (and FWIW, Democrat-leaning) non-practicing Lutherans. If anything, some of the evangelicals I've been around can be too PRO-Judaism, wanting to adopt the Feasts of the Obsolete Covenant, hold seders, etc.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    The possibility that anti-semitic ideas exist at the "center" and "core" of American evangelicalism is bizarre to me. I have *never* in 38 years encountered such. As I said earlier, the only place I've encountered, even slightly, such views was from older-generation (and FWIW, Democrat-leaning) non-practicing Lutherans. If anything, some of the evangelicals I've been around can be too PRO-Judaism, wanting to adopt the Feasts of the Obsolete Covenant, hold seders, etc.
                    As to that last part, I like to do some of that sometime strictly for historical context, and I always make that clear.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      The possibility that anti-semitic ideas exist at the "center" and "core" of American evangelicalism is bizarre to me. I have *never* in 38 years encountered such. As I said earlier, the only place I've encountered, even slightly, such views was from older-generation (and FWIW, Democrat-leaning) non-practicing Lutherans. If anything, some of the evangelicals I've been around can be too PRO-Judaism, wanting to adopt the Feasts of the Obsolete Covenant, hold seders, etc.
                      Your experience does seem quite different from mine. It depends on what definition of anti-Semitism is accepted. Most define it as some type of hatred, which I disagree with. Some stereotypes are labeled "anti-Semitic" because they represent anti-Semitic thought, the label applies to the person holding those ideas just as it applies to the ideas themselves. Just because it is accompanied by support for the state of Israel does not absolve the person for holding those views.

                      Have you ever met a Christian who attends a church steeped in conspiracy? I have, and I wonder if those Christians have lost ability to recognize anti-Semitic ideas for what they are. The churches which those ideas exist are described as "bible believing" and "teaching the Word lie by line, verse by verse".

                      How much anti-Semitism is acceptable within the Body of Christ? Some contend that it is a moral failing to object to anti-Semitic memes and stereotypes. While this might not be an example of anti-Semitism, it does show some acceptance of anti-Semitism.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                        It depends on what definition of anti-Semitism is accepted. Most define it as some type of hatred, which I disagree with.
                        'I have own special definition of anti-Semitism'.

                        How much anti-Semitism is acceptable within the Body of Christ?
                        Who knows what special thing you mean by anti-Semitism here???
                        Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                          Your experience does seem quite different from mine. It depends on what definition of anti-Semitism is accepted. Most define it as some type of hatred, which I disagree with. Some stereotypes are labeled "anti-Semitic" because they represent anti-Semitic thought, the label applies to the person holding those ideas just as it applies to the ideas themselves. Just because it is accompanied by support for the state of Israel does not absolve the person for holding those views.

                          Have you ever met a Christian who attends a church steeped in conspiracy? I have, and I wonder if those Christians have lost ability to recognize anti-Semitic ideas for what they are. The churches which those ideas exist are described as "bible believing" and "teaching the Word lie by line, verse by verse".

                          How much anti-Semitism is acceptable within the Body of Christ? Some contend that it is a moral failing to object to anti-Semitic memes and stereotypes. While this might not be an example of anti-Semitism, it does show some acceptance of anti-Semitism.
                          The Bible does refer to a Jewish synagogue as a "synagogue of Satan". Most average people would probably call that anti-Semitic. The hard truth is probably that it is Christian-ly acceptable to be blunt and hard about Judaism's rejection of Christ.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                            Your experience does seem quite different from mine. It depends on what definition of anti-Semitism is accepted. Most define it as some type of hatred, which I disagree with.
                            'I have own special definition of anti-Semitism. Now I will go around, say anti-Semitism is at center of evangelicalism'.

                            Really, really sad.
                            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              The Bible does refer to a Jewish synagogue as a "synagogue of Satan". Most average people would probably call that anti-Semitic. The hard truth is probably that it is Christian-ly acceptable to be blunt and hard about Judaism's rejection of Christ.
                              Yes, scripture does address the idea of a synagogue of Satan, and Christians are divided on just what the term means. That verse is a key in addressing the religious form of anti-Semitism. But I think Graham was expressing a different form of anti-Semitism, one not anchored in a theology. He did refer to "Synagogue of Satan", but most of his comments centered on Jews in positions of power.

                              Yes the Jews did reject Christ and have not accepted Christ, that is part of the definition of being Jewish as opposed to being Christian. But Graham was referring to Jews at the helm of, in control of, subverting society. Many do see that as anti-Semitic, an example of anti-Semitic ideas, in spite of any stands on the role of Israel in current affairs which are held along with the anti-Semitic ideas.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                                'I have own special definition of anti-Semitism. Now I will go around, say anti-Semitism is at center of evangelicalism'.

                                Really, really sad.
                                Yes it is sad. For some reasons many, including Jews, see the populist ideas presented by Graham as anti-Semitic. Graham was a product of American evangelicalism, rooted in, formed by, and his views were informed by, the faith. Those ideas also exist today, but are not recognized as anti-Semitic.

                                When they pop up, and it is called anti-Semitic, the response is to note that the person has a high view of Jews and the Jewish State of Israel, so it cannot be anti-Semitic.

                                So my definition is not so special and rare, it is quite common, outside of evangelicalism apparently. I did not say that it is at the center of evangelicalism, implying it forms basis for ideas within evangelicalism. I did say it exists within evangelicalism and is accepted. That many Christians see it, do not recognize it, even labeling churches where it is fostered as Bible believing and good teaching, the core and center of evangelicalism.

                                Graham said those things, and many wonder if they represent his thinking at the time. But he recanted and probably repented; if that is true, then it suggests that he held those views, then turned away from them.

                                Comment

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