Announcement

Collapse

General Theistics 101 Guidelines

This area is open for nontheists and theists to interact on issues of theism and faith in a civilized manner. We ask that nontheist participation respect the theistic views of others and not seek to undermine theism in general, or advocate for nontheism. Such posts are more suited for and allowable in Apologetics 301 with very little restriction.

The moderators of this area are given great discretion to determine if a particular thread or comment would more appropriately belong in another forum area.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Billy Graham and Jews, Christianity and Judaism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    And yet you never brought this up until after he died. Must not have been a big deal then.
    I have brought it up before on Tweb, and thought it was a big deal. It was pointed out to me that I had a moral failing for the stand that Christians ought to distance themselves from all forms of antisemitism, an application of the Modesto Manifesto with respect to antisemitism.

    I feel no sense of shame for my stand on antiseitism, but I do wonder at the mindset which holds that type of thinking which I should feel shame.

    How much leaven is needed for a loaf of bread, how many anti-Semitic ideas should we allow into the Body to give them expression? I admit that this is a loaded question, but presented here because it forms an explanation for my stand.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by simplicio View Post
      I have brought it up before on Tweb, and thought it was a big deal. It was pointed out to me that I had a moral failing for the stand that Christians ought to distance themselves from all forms of antisemitism, an application of the Modesto Manifesto with respect to antisemitism.

      I feel no sense of shame for my stand on antiseitism, but I do wonder at the mindset which holds that type of thinking which I should feel shame.

      How much leaven is needed for a loaf of bread, how many anti-Semitic ideas should we allow into the Body to give them expression? I admit that this is a loaded question, but presented here because it forms an explanation for my stand.
      It is becoming clear that you have a chip on your shoulder and see antisemitism everywhere as some sort of conspiracy.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
        The possibility that anti-semitic ideas exist at the "center" and "core" of American evangelicalism is bizarre to me. I have *never* in 38 years encountered such. As I said earlier, the only place I've encountered, even slightly, such views was from older-generation (and FWIW, Democrat-leaning) non-practicing Lutherans. If anything, some of the evangelicals I've been around can be too PRO-Judaism, wanting to adopt the Feasts of the Obsolete Covenant, hold seders, etc.
        This is a strange statement to me as well. In my many years in evangelical churches, I have never been taught anything about Jews secretly controlling the world. More the opposite, i.e., we need to support the true vine.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Celebrian View Post
          This is a strange statement to me as well. In my many years in evangelical churches, I have never been taught anything about Jews secretly controlling the world. ...
          I've heard that kind of stuff on TV, of course, from assorted bigoted characters.

          And TV's Andy Levy -- himself one of "them," obviously -- used to joke about it on RedEye.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Nationalist.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            It is becoming clear that you have a chip on your shoulder and see antisemitism everywhere as some sort of conspiracy.
            Maybe the question is whether Graham's comments from forty years ago were anti-Semitic. If so, then if those ideas also are also current today, then the same label we attach to Graham's comments attach to today's comments. And if we look at Christian's responses when they meet with such ideas, then we can measure whether those ideas are "accepted" or "rejected".

            Again, I will ask the question: How much anti-Semitism should we accept within the Body of Christ?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Celebrian View Post
              This is a strange statement to me as well. In my many years in evangelical churches, I have never been taught anything about Jews secretly controlling the world. More the opposite, i.e., we need to support the true vine.
              And just what is the relationship between what is taught and what is held by individuals? Do people only pick up and hold the ideas which are taught, and reject ideas which are incompatible with the teaching?

              That does seem to be a common view of many Christians, they cannot fathom that Christians hold ideas which come from outside the church outside the Body of Christ!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                And just what is the relationship between what is taught and what is held by individuals? Do people only pick up and hold the ideas which are taught, and reject ideas which are incompatible with the teaching?

                That does seem to be a common view of many Christians, they cannot fathom that Christians hold ideas which come from outside the church outside the Body of Christ!
                Did you not say that this anti-semitism is "accepted as part of the core" of American evangelicalism? Since I have never been taught this nor heard this from other evangelicals, I'm not convinced that it is as big a part of evangelicalism as you contend. That some evangelicals may hold strange ideas doesn't make it accepted or a "center" of evangelicalism.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Celebrian View Post
                  Did you not say that this anti-semitism is "accepted as part of the core" of American evangelicalism? Since I have never been taught this nor heard this from other evangelicals, I'm not convinced that it is as big a part of evangelicalism as you contend. That some evangelicals may hold strange ideas doesn't make it accepted or a "center" of evangelicalism.
                  I too have to go by my experience. I have never heard it taught, I have never heard it in casual conversation. I don't recall ever encountering the idea until this thread. It can't possibly be something at the "core" or "center" of American evangelicalism. At most, it's an obnoxious idea held by a fringe weirdo here and there.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Nationalist.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I think I may broach this topic on Facebook, just to stir the pot there a bit.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Nationalist.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      The Bible does refer to a Jewish synagogue as a "synagogue of Satan". Most average people would probably call that anti-Semitic. The hard truth is probably that it is Christian-ly acceptable to be blunt and hard about Judaism's rejection of Christ.
                      Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                      Yes the Jews did reject Christ and have not accepted Christ, that is part of the definition of being Jewish as opposed to being Christian. But Graham was referring to Jews at the helm of, in control of, subverting society. Many do see that as anti-Semitic, an example of anti-Semitic ideas, in spite of any stands on the role of Israel in current affairs which are held along with the anti-Semitic ideas. [par. 2, emphasis added]
                      Jewishness may be defined in (1) the ethnic sense of the term, or (2) the religious sense. Traditionally, Christians have understood that persons who are presently in a right relationship with God are ‘Jewish’ in the latter sense. The former identity is heritable; the latter, acquired. According to Christian thought, in the New Covenant era believing Jewish and Gentile followers of Christ comprise the people of God. Ethnically Jewish Christ-rejecters may subscribe to a variety of religions claiming Yahweh (YHWH) as their God, but Christians regard all such views as false, displeasing, and highly offensive to God. One cannot please God whilst rejecting his one and only Son.

                      ‘[T]he Jew is not one outwardly, nor is circumcision outwardly, in the flesh. But the Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter, whose praise is not from people but from God’ (Rom. 2.28–29*). ‘For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel’ (9.6b).


                      * Scriptural citations are taken from the Lexham English Bible (2012).
                      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Celebrian View Post
                        Did you not say that this anti-semitism is "accepted as part of the core" of American evangelicalism? Since I have never been taught this nor heard this from other evangelicals, I'm not convinced that it is as big a part of evangelicalism as you contend. That some evangelicals may hold strange ideas doesn't make it accepted or a "center" of evangelicalism.
                        What ideas are at the core of evangelicalism? And what was the response form many different sides in reaction to Graham's remarks (and Graham's own response)?

                        I guess it comes down to the personal experience. Several evangelicals claim that they have never heard it except for the occasional fringe weirdo. My point is that I have not met an evangelical (I am trying to remember all the times I have encountered the ideas) which did comment that it was a fringe idea, when it comes from a "good Christian" who is part of a "good church"; the claim is that it is not anti-Semitism, that it somehow doesn't count because they support Israel. Which brings us back to the reactions to Graham's comments: Israel was front and center for many.

                        If the Christians checks off all the right boxes, hits the right notes on some list, the ideas on Jews such as Graham's are not seen as fringe at all. Graham checked off the right boxes, said the right things. But he also held those ideas. And he recanted, probably repented.

                        I asked earlier how much anti-Semitism should we accept within the Body of Christ. Maybe we ought to resist such ideas.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          We need an accurate definition of what "anti Semitism is". Groups like the ADL would like to expand the definition such so that even criticism of Israel's foreign policy is suspect. Others may insist that this involves active support for the nation of Israel (foreign aid, etc.) In his autobiography, Bill Clinton wrote that his pastor told him that he could be pro-choice if he wanted, but that if he ever turned his back on Israel, God would never forgive him.

                          I maintain that the US should not give foreign aid to Israel, as a pro-life Christian. Israel has liberal abortion laws, and its government subsidizes abortions.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            We need an accurate definition of what "anti Semitism is". Groups like the ADL ...
                            Didn't they throw a hissy fit because Mel Gibson wouldn't edit the "Blood Curse" out of The Passion of the Christ?

                            However we define "antisemitism," and however "much" (or little) of it we should tolerate, they don't get to tell us what we can include in our Scriptures, nor whether we can present those things publicly.

                            If there's a need for a "conversation about" *eye roll* these things, fine. But I don't see it likely to happen. Most of "my people" are likely as unaware of these controversies as I was. I doubt if even many pastors are very aware of them. I'd expect them to concentrate on teaching what they believe the controversial passages *do* mean, rather than borrowing trouble by addressing the antisemitic things they *don't* mean.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Nationalist.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              We need an accurate definition of what "anti Semitism is". Groups like the ADL would like to expand the definition such so that even criticism of Israel's foreign policy is suspect. Others may insist that this involves active support for the nation of Israel (foreign aid, etc.) In his autobiography, Bill Clinton wrote that his pastor told him that he could be pro-choice if he wanted, but that if he ever turned his back on Israel, God would never forgive him.

                              I maintain that the US should not give foreign aid to Israel, as a pro-life Christian. Israel has liberal abortion laws, and its government subsidizes abortions.
                              I agree that we need a discussion on a definition of anti-Semitism, like pornography, we feel certain we recognize it when we see it. Graham's remarks and Mel Gibson's remarks were pretty much similar, both noted a cabal of Jews at the center of this nation's moral decline.

                              But where it gets less clear is regards to the nation of Israel. Quite a few people would condemn the lack of material support for Israel as antisemitism.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                                Didn't they throw a hissy fit because Mel Gibson wouldn't edit the "Blood Curse" out of The Passion of the Christ?

                                However we define "antisemitism," and however "much" (or little) of it we should tolerate, they don't get to tell us what we can include in our Scriptures, nor whether we can present those things publicly.

                                If there's a need for a "conversation about" *eye roll* these things, fine. But I don't see it likely to happen. Most of "my people" are likely as unaware of these controversies as I was. I doubt if even many pastors are very aware of them. I'd expect them to concentrate on teaching what they believe the controversial passages *do* mean, rather than borrowing trouble by addressing the antisemitic things they *don't* mean.
                                But is that restricted to the ADL or apply to Jews in general? Jews are sensitive in ways we Christians have difficulty understanding when it comes to Blood Curse from the passion narrative.

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X