Walking on Water

[tabibito]

galilee.jpg
From an old Sunday School handout.

That map doesn't seem to be related to the issue. All the passage says is that they were about 100 yards offshore. While somewhere close to Bethsaida would be a good working hypothesis, the most likely location, Et Tell, of Bethsaida is disputed. It might be right, but the topography of the area has completely changed since the first century (earthquake of 363 CE?) and Et Tell is now 1¹/₂ miles inland. As a result, nothing can now be determined about the depth of the water in that location in the first century.

[rogue06]

I know, rogue....... all my beliefs, ideas, questions etc are like those of an ass.

If the shoe fits...

I'll also note that you didn't answer what the point of such a request is. Funny thing that.

But it looks as if you've replied to this thread more than others, loudly and crossly and .......... Me thinks thou doth protest too much!

What exactly was there to be protesting as you so imagine.

Face it. It was an asinine request to demand an X marks the spot for where the incident exactly took place. Can you seriously argue otherwise?

[rogue06]

Wrong story, different verses, quite wrong.

What in the world are you blathering about?

Are you determined to demonstrate your own assessment that "all my beliefs, ideas, questions etc are like those of an ass"?

[tabibito]

Given that eider hasn't been able to provide clarification regarding which of the gospels he wants the information about passion week to be drawn from or which part of the events of the Monday he wants posted, I'll post a summary of Mark's record for the whole of the Monday.

Next Day: Mark 11:12 - 13:37 (Monday Night i.e. after [nominally] 6pm Sunday according to the common calendar.)

• Return to Jerusalem
• Cursing of the fig tree
• Driving out merchants and money changers
• Becoming late, they were leaving the city

Monday from the Morning

• Returning to Jerusalem
• Fig tree found withered
• Jesus teaches – authority of the believer, necessity for forgiveness
• Arrive Jerusalem
• Jesus questioned about the source of his authority
• Jesus teaches with parables
• Question about whether paying taxes is acceptable
• Hypothetical about the woman with seven husbands
• Question about the most important commandment
• Teaching about the messiah
• Story of the Widow’s mite
• Leave the temple
• Prediction: fall of the temple
• Three questions:
  • When will this be,
  • sign of Jesus’ return,
  • sign that these things are going to be fulfilled.
• Questions answered; but first the gospel must be preached in all nations
• Jesus advises - When the abomination that causes desolation is seen, people should seek refuge -- stay alert

[rogue06]

That map doesn't seem to be related to the issue. All the passage says is that they were about 100 yards offshore. While somewhere close to Bethsaida would be a good working hypothesis, the most likely location, Et Tell, of Bethsaida is disputed. It might be right, but the topography of the area has completely changed since the first century (earthquake of 363 CE?) and Et Tell is now 1¹/₂ miles inland. As a result, nothing can now be determined about the depth of the water in that location in the first century.

Such Sunday School handouts often were more enthusiastic than accurate.

[eider]

That's a rather large assumption on your part.

Another member offered a school map of the lake with a course shown upon it. This course looks like the one described where the disciples left the area where 5000 were fed during that day and set course for Capernaum. The position of Capernaum doesn't look right because most other maps show Capernaum at the very North end of the Lake, here are both the member's map with course shown and the more common map.....for your scrutiny.

But the incident where Peter saw his great friend and leader after all the events of that last week of excitement priobably happened on the same shoreline, imo.
GALILEE SEA.jpg1.JPG

A Chart of Gennesaret shows that the lake is extremely deep at its centre, very deep indeed, but the Capernaum shore is a very shallow and gentle sloping for the first 1-2 kilometers.

2.JPG
Hundreds of feet from the shore Cephas could have been so excited at seeing his great friend that he plunged over the side and rushed ashore as best as he could.

[tabibito]

Another member offered a school map of the lake with a course shown upon it. This course looks like the one described where the disciples left the area where 5000 were fed during that day and set course for Capernaum. The position of Capernaum doesn't look right because most other maps show Capernaum at the very North end of the Lake, here are both the member's map with course shown and the more common map.....for your scrutiny.

But the incident where Peter saw his great friend and leader after all the events of that last week of excitement priobably happened on the same shoreline, imo.
GALILEE SEA.jpg1.JPG

A Chart of Gennesaret shows that the lake is extremely deep at its centre, very deep indeed, but the Capernaum shore is a very shallow and gentle sloping for the first 1-2 kilometers.

2.JPG
Hundreds of feet from the shore Cephas could have been so excited at seeing his great friend that he plunged over the side and rushed ashore as best as he could.

A current map of the Galilee is hardly useful. The location of Bethsaida has not been established with certainty but El Tell, the likely location of Bethsaida, is now land locked, and because of uplifting, about 7 metres above the CURRENT lake. “Up against the base of the et-Tell mound, we [(Rami Aray et al)] found lake clays containing crustacean microorganisms. At one time, Bethsaida was right on the water¹." The water level of the Galilee is generally higher than it was in the first century - perhaps a result of the original outlet for the Jordan silting over, with the newer outlet being at a higher elevation than the older. The levels of the Galilee are also lower now than they were historically.

¹Rami Arav, Richard A. Freund and John F. Shroder Jr., “Bethsaida Rediscovered,” Biblical Archaeology Review, 26:1 (January/February 2000): 48.

The Biblical record does show that Peter probably did not swim to shore, but that is based on the record that he got dressed before he jumped from the boat.

[eider]

A current map of the Galilee is hardly useful. The location of Bethsaida has not been established with certainty but El Tell, the likely location of Bethsaida, is now land locked, and because of uplifting, about 7 metres above the CURRENT lake. “Up against the base of the et-Tell mound, we [(Rami Aray et al)] found lake clays containing crustacean microorganisms. At one time, Bethsaida was right on the water¹." The water level of the Galilee is generally higher than it was in the first century - perhaps a result of the original outlet for the Jordan silting over, with the newer outlet being at a higher elevation than the older. The levels of the Galilee are also lower now than they were historically.

¹Rami Arav, Richard A. Freund and John F. Shroder Jr., “Bethsaida Rediscovered,” Biblical Archaeology Review, 26:1 (January/February 2000): 48.

Some of that is correct but the whole piece is gobbledegook
That's all upside down! The water level is MUCH LOWER now than it was in the early first century.....Much Lower!
One Bethsaida is now one kilometer+ up the North Jordan on the right bank as you go up, and it may have been a sea-port back then....that is probably not an uplifting, rather a decrease in water levels. Bethsaida Julian was plonked to the SW of Capernaum
One sentence suggests a rising level and others suggest a lowering level ........ it's all a bit wobbly, imo.

The Biblical record does show that Peter probably did not swim to shore, but that is based on the record that he got dressed before he jumped from the boat.

Wonderful

[tabibito]

Some of that is correct but the whole piece is gobbledegook
That's all upside down! The water level is MUCH LOWER now than it was in the early first century.....Much Lower!
One Bethsaida is now one kilometer+ up the North Jordan on the right bank as you go up, and it may have been a sea-port back then....that is probably not an uplifting, rather a decrease in water levels. Bethsaida Julian was plonked to the SW of Capernaum
One sentence suggests a rising level and others suggest a lowering level ........ it's all a bit wobbly, imo.


Wonderful

So? (The reason you can't understand what the Bible states is explained.)

As a result of seismic activity, the area around Bethsaida is higher now than it was in the first century. (UPLIFTING of the LAND in that area says nothing about the water level of the lake.)
The Galilee water is deeper now than it was in the first century. The former outlet to the Jordan silted over or was otherwise blocked, with the result that the current outlet is higher than the outlet that existed in the first century.




During the 1990s, the water level of the Galilee was severely reduced, primarily because of a severe drought. During the drought, the water level of the Galilee dropped to roughly the same level that it had been in the first century. Along with a number of other harbours, down in the southeast corner of the Galilee, the remains of Gadara's harbour were exposed because of the reduced water level.

[eider]

The Galilee water is deeper now than it was in the first century. .

During the 1990s, the water level of the Galilee was severely reduced,

[tabibito]

Just a little more information for you to scoff at

Mendel Nun has determined that the water level of the lake varied between 209.5 and 210.5 meters below sea level in antiquity. In 1932, a dam was built at the southern outlet of the Jordan River allowing the maximum level to be controlled. It is normally maintained at -209 meters. Drought conditions, however, have dropped the level as dangerously low as -213 meters. ... For those doing research on the antiquities of the lake, however, the drop has proven to be a boon. Many ancient harbors are now exposed for the first time in the modern era.

https://biblearchaeology.org/researc...sea-of-galilee
the “harbor of St. Peter” [as Mendel Nun has labeled it (1989a: 22, 23)]. It is located just northeast of the Church of the Primacy of St. Peter in the area of Tabgha [(traditionally accepted site of the post resurrection appearance)], on the northwest side of the lake. Visible only when the water level falls to -211.50 meters

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-09768-8
water level was around -212 to -210 m mean sea level (msl) for the Iron Age II period. Lake level rose to -208/-209 m msl during the Late Hellenistic/Early Roman period. Water level remained low (<-213/-214 m msl) from the Byzantine to the Crusader period (from 5th to 12th centuries CE).

[eider]

Just a little more information for you to scoff at

Mendel Nun has determined that the water level of the lake varied between 209.5 and 210.5 meters below sea level in antiquity. In 1932, a dam was built at the southern outlet of the Jordan River allowing the maximum level to be controlled. It is normally maintained at -209 meters. Drought conditions, however, have dropped the level as dangerously low as -213 meters. ... For those doing research on the antiquities of the lake, however, the drop has proven to be a boon. Many ancient harbors are now exposed for the first time in the modern era.

https://biblearchaeology.org/researc...sea-of-galilee
the “harbor of St. Peter” [as Mendel Nun has labeled it (1989a: 22, 23)]. It is located just northeast of the Church of the Primacy of St. Peter in the area of Tabgha [(traditionally accepted site of the post resurrection appearance)], on the northwest side of the lake. Visible only when the water level falls to -211.50 meters

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-09768-8
water level was around -212 to -210 m mean sea level (msl) for the Iron Age II period. Lake level rose to -208/-209 m msl during the Late Hellenistic/Early Roman period. Water level remained low (<-213/-214 m msl) from the Byzantine to the Crusader period (from 5th to 12th centuries CE).

Yes yes.... I'm not scoffing at researchers' reports, but at the muddled way in which you mix everything up.

You think that Cephas jumped in to shallow water when he saw his great friend after so many trials and tribulations. So do I.
And I think that Jesus may have Swum out past the disciples boat as they struggled in to a head sea after the great feeding event. There is a word in Eastern Aramaic which means both actions,.... walk and swim.

It is what it is.

[tabibito]

There is a word in Eastern Aramaic which means both actions,.... walk and swim.

A claim that I have so far been unable to confirm, and irrelevant to the topic at hand: Galilean Aramaic is a dialect of western, not eastern, Aramaic.

[rogue06]

Never heard of a drought?

[eider]

Never heard of a drought?

Indeed. I have followed the reduction in water levels on Gennesaret very closely during recent years. Much of the drainage was caused by pumps irrigating nearby land but this has been stopped and water levels are rapidly regaining now.

The drought has helped in the discovery of ancient fishing craft, equipment, and the stone anchors found are most interesting. The anchors could give a whole new meaning to Simon's title, Cephas.

The Capernaum foreshore ran out for hundreds of meters, back in 2018, it gave a very clear view of how shallow the Northern foreshore is when there is water present. The Eastern shore by the Geresenes/Gadarenes is much steeper/deeper, where the sows ran down in to the sea from the steep hillsides.

GENNESERET DRYING.jpg