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Why is apologetics almost unknown?

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  • #76


    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Er, ChristianityToday? An article which starts off by admitting that the evidence is "mixed"? My, what truly compelling evidence.

    Source: Into the Academic Lion's Den, Do Christian scholars belong in the hostile world of higher ed?, by George Yancey

    While the evidence about whether colleges and universities are encouraging Christians to lose their faith is mixed, the anti-Christian humanist bias within academia is relatively clear

    [George Yancey is a professor of sociology at the University of North Texas. He is author of Compromising Scholarship: Religious and Political Bias in American Higher Education (Baylor University Press) and co-author (with David Williamson) of What Motivates Cultural Progressives (Baylor University Press). He is currently doing research on Christianophobia in the United States and his work can be found at www.georgeyancey.com.]

    © Copyright Original Source




    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    This from the guy who claimed America is the freest nation in the world because it allegedly has the lowest population density.
    Yeah, that's not quite what I argued, but misinformation/misrepresentation is sort of your thing, so. The rest wasn't worth responding to again.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Oh yeah, sorry, you also tied your crazy assertions about US freedom to the size of the country. BTW, Russia is the biggest country in the world.

      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      This idea that we're allowed to really strive for life and liberty, and pursue happiness is unique.


      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Oh yeah, sorry, you also tied your crazy assertions about US freedom to the size of the country. BTW, Russia is the biggest country in the world.
        I thought it was Alaska!!!!




        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          The anti-religious environment at the academic level is well known, and attested to as I've demonstrated (and as I'm certain others here are also aware). If that's not good enough for you then, oh well. Again, I suspect you're being disingenuous, but I'm not going to argue about it.
          Color me shocked that a deconvert is being disingenuous and resorting to strawmen. Still looking for an honest doubter - haven't found one yet.

          Anti-Christian academic bias was evident when I attended Penn State 2 decades ago - not so much in my area of studies, but in Religious Studies/Philosophy.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Oh yeah, sorry, you also tied your crazy assertions about US freedom to the size of the country. BTW, Russia is the biggest country in the world.



            Have you tried reading for comprehension?
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #81
              I wonder if what happens for a lot of evangelical Christians in the US, is that they grow up in a Christian family and a Christian church and a Christian school... then they go off to a secular university and for the first time in their lives they meet people who aren't Christians and feel very shocked by it. Anything at all the non-Christian says or does is then viewed by the wide-eyed evangelical kid as being all about Christianity and atheism. Whereas any amount of pro-Christian people they meet at the same secular university are simply taken for granted by the evangelical kid as something to be expected because they are used to people being openly pro-religious. So if 10 lecturers inappropriately preach the gospel during lecture time, but one lecturer inappropriately mentions in passing he's an atheist, then that comes across to the kid as it being an 'anti-Christian' university. The university is to the kid an extremely 'hostile' environment to his religion, as compared to his family and church that he's used to.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                I wonder if what happens for a lot of evangelical Christians in the US, is that they grow up in a Christian family and a Christian church and a Christian school... then they go off to a secular university and for the first time in their lives they meet people who aren't Christians and feel very shocked by it. Anything at all the non-Christian says or does is then viewed by the wide-eyed evangelical kid as being all about Christianity and atheism. Whereas any amount of pro-Christian people they meet at the same secular university are simply taken for granted by the evangelical kid as something to be expected because they are used to people being openly pro-religious. So if 10 lecturers inappropriately preach the gospel during lecture time, but one lecturer inappropriately mentions in passing he's an atheist, then that comes across to the kid as it being an 'anti-Christian' university. The university is to the kid an extremely 'hostile' environment to his religion, as compared to his family and church that he's used to.
                You, um, have a vivid imagination. Many who grow up in Christian homes do walk away from the Christian faith (something like 60% on average, IIRC). I would argue, however, that much of the drift is due to never having been properly grounded in the faith in the first place. Some of those who drift away do come back (like I did).
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  You, um, have a vivid imagination. Many who grow up in Christian homes do walk away from the Christian faith (something like 60% on average, IIRC). I would argue, however, that much of the drift is due to never having been properly grounded in the faith in the first place. Some of those who drift away do come back (like I did).
                  Yeah. It doesn't really apply to me, since I wasn't raised in an Evangelical Christian household; Didn't attend University till after the military, and at 30 years old, was hardly the wide-eyed type, yet still experienced it. Doesn't apply to BP, who apparently was a devout Evangelical Christian; Should have been the wide-eyed type Starlight is describing, and didn't experience it.

                  Professor Yancey does point out,
                  "The anti-Christian hostility we see comes partly from scholars' lack of contact with Christians. When more Christians enter into academia, they challenge the anti-Christian stereotypes and myths of some academics. A history of anti-intellectualism within Christianity has long fed into the mistrust of some scholars. At times Christians have been our own worst enemies and have held unwarranted mistrust toward academics and scientists. We should not be surprised when that resentment is shoved back at us.

                  Furthermore, the differing epistemological assumptions of academia's secular humanism and traditional Christian ideas form an ideological divide. That divide gets deepened when so few Christians participate in the social circles of academics. Some scholars' mistrust keeps them from respecting the perspectives Christians bring to issues within their specific field or to general social, political, and religious concerns."

                  So I wouldn't say that there's nothing to the idea that culture shock exists for many people who grew up in Christian communities, and then found themselves in a very secular environment, but people by-and-large are not simply imagining the hostile environment they're in. It does exist, and it exists on a very large scale.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    You don't need to be subscribed to Christianity Today to read the full article (I'm not, i can).
                    Strange. Every time I try to read the article, on several different devices now, it cuts off fairly early and tells me my preview is over and that I need to subscribe to read the full article.

                    Not that I know of.
                    I'll certainly be interested in the results, when the study is published.

                    This is a strawman. I haven't argued this.
                    My apologies, I never meant to imply that you had. Way back in my first post on the subject, I noted that this was how many of the Christians with whom I've spoken tend to view secular universities. It was their view which I was opposing when I mentioned this, not yours.

                    The anti-religious environment at the academic level is well known, and attested to as I've demonstrated (and as I'm certain others here are also aware). If that's not good enough for you then, oh well. Again, I suspect you're being disingenuous, but I'm not going to argue about it.
                    The problem is that it really isn't well-known. If it was well-known, there would have been no need for the Templeton Foundation to supply a grant for a study on the subject.

                    Again, I absolutely agree that anti-religious, and specifically anti-Christian, discrimination occurs on college campuses, and that this is a problem which needs to be addressed. I simply doubt that it occurs as commonly as many people claim.

                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Color me shocked that a deconvert is being disingenuous and resorting to strawmen. Still looking for an honest doubter - haven't found one yet.
                    I'm neither being disingenuous nor resorting to Straw Men. I agree with Adrift that the problem exists. We seem to disagree on how common the problem is.

                    Anti-Christian academic bias was evident when I attended Penn State 2 decades ago - not so much in my area of studies, but in Religious Studies/Philosophy.
                    Did you ever, personally, experience anti-Christian discrimination in the classroom? If so, you'll be the second person with whom I have conversed that has had such experiences.
                    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      Nah. It's enough that I know what I've experienced first hand, and what I've been told by others who have as well. This issue is so prevalent in academia that, as BP pointed out, a very successful film was made on the subject. A film that resonated strongly enough with Christians that it led to a successful sequel. There are reputable voices who discuss their own anecdotal experience. There are studies in progress attempting to measure how pervasive the issue is. There is even a non-profit group whose stated goals are "to defend and sustain individual rights at America's colleges and universities", and who's case archive is voluminous.

                      People who claim that the state of Western academia is generally positive towards religion and the religious have their heads buried in the sand, and no anecdotal experience I share is going to change their minds about that. I can't account for BP's anecdotal experience. Perhaps he was just blessed to pass through without noticing any issues. But Starlight lives in backwards land, where up is down, and left is right. You can typically count on reality to be the opposite of whatever he has to say.
                      My experience was the same as Starlight and PB. In general in my classes in four different secular universities it was decidedly neutral, not positive nor negative. Even in my classes in religion topics such as the Comparative Religion, Christianity (OT and NT) and Philosophy I can only recall individual students expressing strong opinions on either side.

                      The most controversial professor I ever had was a geology professor who rejected continental drift, but that was the 60s, and he wore sandals, beads and tie-dyed t-shirts and bell bottom trousers.

                      The most controversial university I attended in the 1960s was Maryland, but that was political, and mostly off campus.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-07-2017, 09:29 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Color me shocked that a deconvert is being disingenuous and resorting to strawmen. Still looking for an honest doubter - haven't found one yet.

                        Anti-Christian academic bias was evident when I attended Penn State 2 decades ago - not so much in my area of studies, but in Religious Studies/Philosophy.
                        I doesn't shock me (and I'd assume BP either) that you two feel academia is biased against religion. It seems to be a common narrative with Christian conservatives. Everyone is biased, everyone is out to destroy Christianity, and because so many of you believe it that makes it true.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Nah. It's enough that I know what I've experienced first hand, and what I've been told by others who have as well. This issue is so prevalent in academia that, as BP pointed out, a very successful film was made on the subject. A film that resonated strongly enough with Christians that it led to a successful sequel. There are reputable voices who discuss their own anecdotal experience. There are studies in progress attempting to measure how pervasive the issue is. There is even a non-profit group whose stated goals are "to defend and sustain individual rights at America's colleges and universities", and who's case archive is voluminous.

                          People who claim that the state of Western academia is generally positive towards religion and the religious have their heads buried in the sand, and no anecdotal experience I share is going to change their minds about that. I can't account for BP's anecdotal experience. Perhaps he was just blessed to pass through without noticing any issues. But Starlight lives in backwards land, where up is down, and left is right. You can typically count on reality to be the opposite of whatever he has to say.
                          Usually, when I hear accusations of persecution, bias, or prejudice from Evangelical Christians/Conservatives, I can't help be skeptical of the charges. I'm not saying they never experience those things, but I think they greatly exaggerate experiences. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact they live their lives inside of alternative media and religious institutions, and assume that any place that doesn't also reinforce their beliefs must be the true place of bias - when it's actually the other way around.

                          As BP stated, we've dealt with Christians that often incorporate their religious philosophy into their classroom, or even outright proselytize us. It happened to me in high school with a history teacher I had. I guess it doesn't bother most of us because we are so used to the rest of society constantly incorporating their religious philosophy into places it's often not appropriate, that we're just kind of used to it at this point.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                            Did you ever, personally, experience anti-Christian discrimination in the classroom? If so, you'll be the second person with whom I have conversed that has had such experiences.
                            No, but my classes were pretty much all engineering. I had plenty of friends taking liberal arts classes who experienced it, however (though I'd characterize it more as Christian denigration than discrimination per se). Outside the classroom, but on campus, the university attempted to set up "free speech zones" (AFAICT, largely in an effort to dislodge a street preacher (Gary) who hung out nearby the Willard building).
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                              As BP stated, we've dealt with Christians that often incorporate their religious philosophy into their classroom, or even outright proselytize us.
                              Just to clarify, I certainly have not seen this often. I've had only two professors bring their Christianity up in the classroom. In one case, it was certainly inappropriate, but it only occurred a few times and certainly not often. In the other case, it is in a Philosophy of Religion class, where such a thing is to be expected, and the professor's Christianity has not manifested in any sort of prejudice against me for my beliefs.
                              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                                I doesn't shock me (and I'd assume BP either) that you two feel academia is biased against religion. It seems to be a common narrative with Christian conservatives. Everyone is biased, everyone is out to destroy Christianity, and because so many of you believe it that makes it true.
                                Did you enjoy immolating that strawman? Biased in general, sure. Do I think everyone is biased? No. Do I think everyone is out to destroy Christianity? No. I'm fairly certain my position is rather more prevelant than your caricature.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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