Why is apologetics almost unknown?

[Starlight]

Spart, to answer your question another way: In the course of my doing a philosophy degree at a secular university I do not remember (and I am sure I would if they had) a single instance of any lecturer or university staff member making any value judgement or comment that was positive or negative in nature about "religion" or "Christianity", and that included in a course specifically titled 'philosophy of religion'. At no point was I ever aware of the religious views of any lecturer or university staff member or knew whether they were religious or not.

In fact, in the course of a decade spent at secular universities, I can only recall a single time in which a university staff member gave an opinion on the topic of religion. It was in a small group meeting of half a dozen or so of us who were science researchers who knew each other fairly well and it was casual discussion, and I don't recall how the topic came up but a science professor made the comment that he was not religious and did not understand how anyone who was a scientist could be religious... he then apologized to the room in case he had offended anyone and asked if anyone was religious so he could apologize to them, everyone said they weren't religious, and he seemed to think that supported his general view. Despite being an atheist myself, his comments made me very uncomfortable because they were socially inappropriate.

So the way evangelicals on TWeb like to imagine secular universities as being some sort of bastions of anti-Christian indoctrination and hatred just makes me laugh. Sure, well-educated people might tend to not be religious, and gaining a scientific mindset might lead one to question religious claims, so the average university science department might happen to be disproportionately full of atheists as compared to the general population. But secular universities don't activity teach against religion. To think that is just absurd.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Spart, to answer your question another way: In the course of my doing a philosophy degree at a secular university I do not remember (and I am sure I would if they had) a single instance of any lecturer or university staff member making any value judgement or comment that was positive or negative in nature about "religion" or "Christianity", and that included in a course specifically titled 'philosophy of religion'. At no point was I ever aware of the religious views of any lecturer or university staff member or knew whether they were religious or not.

In fact, in the course of a decade spent at secular universities, I can only recall a single time in which a university staff member gave an opinion on the topic of religion. It was in a small group meeting of half a dozen or so of us who were science researchers who knew each other fairly well and it was casual discussion, and I don't recall how the topic came up but a science professor made the comment that he was not religious and did not understand how anyone who was a scientist could be religious... he then apologized to the room in case he had offended anyone and asked if anyone was religious so he could apologize to them, everyone said they weren't religious, and he seemed to think that supported his general view. Despite being an atheist myself, his comments made me very uncomfortable because they were socially inappropriate.

So the way evangelicals on TWeb like to imagine secular universities as being some sort of bastions of anti-Christian indoctrination and hatred just makes me laugh. Sure, well-educated people might tend to not be religious, and gaining a scientific mindset might lead one to question religious claims, so the average university science department might happen to be disproportionately full of atheists as compared to the general population. But secular universities don't activity teach against religion. To think that is just absurd.

I'll chime in to add my own anecdotes. Take them as you will.

I attended a secular college which primarily focused on STEM subjects. I was a Computer Science major, and my girlfriend (now, my wife) was a Chemical Engineering major. Between both of us, in all of the classes which we took, there was only one professor who ever expressed an opinion on religious matters while in the classroom. We had him for Calculus 3, and on a few different occasions, he interrupted his own teaching in order to ask the students whether we knew Jesus, and to pronounce that Jesus is the only way to heaven. It was awkward, strange, and uncomfortable, but that professor was a really weird dude to begin with, so everybody kind of just let it slide.

After undergrad, my wife went to grad school to pursue a PhD in Chemical Engineering. The university she attended had a broader subject scope than did our undergrad, but it was still best known for it's STEM programs. In her five years there, she never once heard a faculty member give any opinion on religious matters. The closest thing to this was one seminar she attended in which a speaker talked about biological evolution. Mind you, she didn't give any opinion on people who don't accept biological evolution; she simply didn't mention that there were people who reject that particular area of science.

Keep in mind, at this time in our lives, both my wife and I were devout Evangelical Christians-- and YEC's, at that-- and I had a strong interest in apologetics. I absolutely loved discussing my faith, and looked for every opportunity to do so. I got into quite a few discussions about religious topics while I was in college. These discussions were simply with other students, not faculty.

Now, I am enrolled in a state school in order to finish a degree in Mathematics. The only professor I have yet had who has offered any opinion on religious matters is in my Philosophy of Religion class. And, as with my earlier Calc3 prof, this professor is a devout Evangelical Christian (and a Presuppositionalist, to boot). Mind you, he hasn't been unfair in his grading of my work, despite the fact that we have pronounced differences of opinion; and he has been very respectful in our dialogues.

This is actually a topic which I've discussed with quite a number of my friends. Very few of them have ever had any professors discuss religion, at all. Of those who have, fewer still had professors who expressed opinions on religion. I've never met anyone who had an experience like one sees in the chain-mails or the movie "God's Not Dead," where a professor takes a vitriolic stance against any religious positions (except, of course, for some of my friends who have attended seminaries, in which case opposition to certain religious beliefs is to be expected in a professor).

Now, I realize this is all anecdotal, so take it as you will. But it seems to me that the idea which a lot of Evangelicals have regarding colleges as atheist recruitment camps is over exaggerated to the point of being ridiculous.

[Spartacus]

adrift's turn for some anecdotal evidence

[Adrift]

adrift's turn for some anecdotal evidence

Nah. It's enough that I know what I've experienced first hand, and what I've been told by others who have as well. This issue is so prevalent in academia that, as BP pointed out, a very successful film was made on the subject. A film that resonated strongly enough with Christians that it led to a successful sequel. There are reputable voices who discuss their own anecdotal experience. There are studies in progress attempting to measure how pervasive the issue is. There is even a non-profit group whose stated goals are "to defend and sustain individual rights at America's colleges and universities", and who's case archive is voluminous.

People who claim that the state of Western academia is generally positive towards religion and the religious have their heads buried in the sand, and no anecdotal experience I share is going to change their minds about that. I can't account for BP's anecdotal experience. Perhaps he was just blessed to pass through without noticing any issues. But Starlight lives in backwards land, where up is down, and left is right. You can typically count on reality to be the opposite of whatever he has to say.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Nah. It's enough that I know what I've experienced first hand, and what I've been told by others who have as well. This issue is so prevalent in academia that, as BP pointed out, a very successful film was made on the subject. A film that resonated strongly enough with Christians that it led to a successful sequel.

Since when does the popularity of a film act as an indicator that the film presents common, real-world situations? Fifty Shades of Grey was wildly successful. Does that mean it's very common in the US for billionaires to solicit students into S&M?

And there are reputable voices who discuss their own anecdotal experience. There are studies in progress attempting to measure how pervasive the issue is. There is even a non-profit group whose stated goals are "to defend and sustain individual rights at America's colleges and universities", and who's case archive is voluminous.

I'm certainly not claiming that such things never happen. However, in the Church where I was once a member, and amongst many of the Evangelicals with whom I still converse, there seems to be an idea that college professors attempting to dissuade students from their Christianity is the norm. As if it is something which every Christian student who goes to college will need to contend against. It is this belief which seems incredibly exaggerated, to me.

People who claim that the state of Western academia is generally positive towards religion and the religious have their heads buried in the sand, and no anecdotal experience I share is going to change their minds about that.

I would similarly say that people who claim that the state of Western academia is generally negative towards religion and the religious have their heads buried in the sand, and no anecdotal experience I share is going to change their minds about that.

I can't account for BP's anecdotal experience. Perhaps he was just blessed to pass through without noticing any issues.

That would seem a fairly dubious explanation, considering it was similar to the experiences of nearly everyone with whom I've ever conversed on the subject.

[Adrift]

Since when does the popularity of a film act as an indicator that the film presents common, real-world situations? Fifty Shades of Grey was wildly successful. Does that mean it's very common in the US for billionaires to solicit students into S&M?

If you don't think the success of a film can tell us anything about how well an audience relates to it, then you don't know film that well. There are dozens and dozens of films, particularly indie films, that find their audience because the audience identifies with the character or the situation. Most people know a Christian who went to college. Most people don't know anyone who's met a 27-year-old billionaire entrepreneur into S&M.

I'm certainly not claiming that such things never happen. However, in the Church where I was once a member, and amongst many of the Evangelicals with whom I still converse, there seems to be an idea that college professors attempting to dissuade students from their Christianity is the norm. As if it is something which every Christian student who goes to college will need to contend against. It is this belief which seems incredibly exaggerated, to me.

If this idea was so prevalent among those Evangelicals you knew when you were a Christian, perhaps, and just hear me out here, perhaps your experience was the anomalous one.

I would similarly say that people who claim that the state of Western academia is generally negative towards religion and the religious have their heads buried in the sand, and no anecdotal experience I share is going to change their minds about that.

That would seem a fairly dubious explanation, considering it was similar to the experiences of nearly everyone with whom I've ever conversed on the subject.

Well you're conversing with someone now who had a different experience, I offered links to others who shared his experience, you even just got done telling me that you knew people in your old church who seemed to have gotten this idea from...some place. I don't know how often you've discussed this with other people, but I guess you can now say that you have a few on the other side to mull over.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

If you don't think the success of a film can tell us anything about how well an audience relates to it, then you don't know film that well.

I never said that a film's success tells us nothing about how relatable it is. I said that a film's success tells us nothing about how commonly its subject matter occurs in the real world.

If this idea was so prevalent among those Evangelicals you knew when you were a Christian, perhaps, and just hear me out here, perhaps your experience was the anomalous one.

It really wasn't, though. Included amongst the list of people with whom I've conversed are Evangelicals who made this claim. While a great many of these people had heard or read anonymous stories which had been passed along through the community, none of them (with the exception of you, now) had ever personally experienced a professor taking a vitriolic stance against Christianity in the classroom.

Now, again, I'm not claiming that such acts never occur. I have no reason to doubt the experience you've related, for example. The only thing I doubt is how commonly such acts actually occur.

Well you're conversing with someone now who had a different experience, I offered links to others who shared his experience, you even just got done telling me that you knew people in your old church who seemed to have gotten this idea from...some place. I don't know how often you've discussed this with other people, but I guess you can now say that you have a few on the other side to mull over.

I was actually including you, in my previous statement, which is why I said "nearly everyone," rather than "everyone."

[Adrift]

I never said that a film's success tells us nothing about how relatable it is. I said that a film's success tells us nothing about how commonly its subject matter occurs in the real world.

It really wasn't, though. Included amongst the list of people with whom I've conversed are Evangelicals who made this claim. While a great many of these people had heard or read anonymous stories which had been passed along through the community, none of them (with the exception of you, now) had ever personally experienced a professor taking a vitriolic stance against Christianity in the classroom.

Now, again, I'm not claiming that such acts never occur. I have no reason to doubt the experience you've related, for example. The only thing I doubt is how commonly such acts actually occur.

I was actually including you, in my previous statement, which is why I said "nearly everyone," rather than "everyone."

Ok. Well, I hope my experience and the experiences of those educators and the support group I linked to will help you to re-evaluate your understanding of this matter.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Ok. Well, I hope my experience and the experiences of those educators and the support group I linked to will help you to re-evaluate your understanding of this matter.

How so? As I've said, I have no doubt that these things occur. My only doubt is that they occur very commonly. The fact that there are people who have had such experiences doesn't contradict this. Similarly, the existence of support groups doesn't imply that the subject which those groups discuss is a common occurrence.

Now, I don't mean to sound like I'm saying we should simply ignore the problem. If I am made aware of a professor who uses his classroom as a soapbox to denigrate Christianity, I'll absolutely condemn such an action. I simply think that it is ridiculous to treat secular universities as if they are atheist recruitment camps.

[Adrift]

You didn't even look at the links I posted, did you?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

You didn't even look at the links I posted, did you?

Actually, I did. In the one relating experiences of religious discrimination, even the author of the link you cited had doubts as to whether his student's account was genuine discrimination; but insofar as his own personal experience is concerned, I would certainly agree that rejecting an academically interesting and well-worked book solely on the basis of its relationship to Christianity is unwarranted discrimination.

As far as the case studies from FIRE go, I certainly haven't had time to review them all, but-- again-- even if I were to grant them all, their existence would not imply that all (nor even most, nor even a plurality of) Christian students who go to college are likely to face adversity in the classroom specifically due to being Christian.

[Adrift]

Actually, I did. In the one relating experiences of religious discrimination, even the author of the link you cited had doubts as to whether his student's account was genuine discrimination;

No he doesn't. He offers the satisfaction of doubt, but he does not express personal doubts about his student's account.

Source: https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2010/07/30/no-christianity-please-were-academics

I suspect that many readers are already generating “maybe .... ” scenarios that fill out this story so that John was actually treated fairly. Blaming the victim is a familiar response to reports of discrimination. Maybe John is just one of those uppity believers who don’t know their place.

Maybe. Maybe John got an F purely as an academic judgment. I’ve seen the marked paper (and my own view is that it is academically weak, but certainly not deserving of an F), and I’m not in a position to hear the professor or the chair’s explanation of the broader context. But the wider point is that those of us in Christian higher education often hear such accounts. We also experience similar incidents ourselves.

© Copyright Original Source

As far as the case studies from FIRE go, I certainly haven't had time to review them all, but-- again-- even if I were to grant them all, their existence would not imply that all (nor even most, nor even a plurality of) Christian students who go to college are likely to face adversity in the classroom specifically due to being Christian.

BP, I feel that you're being a bit insincere here. You stated that you knew lots of people at your previous church who claimed to know or to have heard about the anti-religious atmosphere at the university level, but that after talking to lots of people, including some actual "Evangelicals", you couldn't find anyone who had ever experienced these issues first hand until today when you read that I experienced it first hand. I think that the fact that you had heard about it so often, and that someone finally confirmed it should have given you pause right there, but not only did I mention my own personal experience, I gave two links to educators who also witnessed this first hand, and found it to be common among their students and their own peers (it seems you missed the other link I posted: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...lions-den.html). I pointed out that the issue is so well known that the University of Oregon received a substantial grant from the John Templeton Foundation to see how far anti-religious bias actually goes, and I also linked to a non-profit organization with numerous cases of infringement on religious liberties.

In the course of mere hours, you went from not knowing a single person in this world who had experienced this issue, to hearing of dozens of direct and indirect accounts from relatively reputable sources. When expressing my hope that this would hopefully allow you to re-evaluate your position on the subject...having gone from not knowing anyone who had experienced this issue, and then being confronted with plenty of accounts for it, you reply "How so?", and then double-down on your view that it must be extremely uncommon.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

No he doesn't. He offers the satisfaction of doubt, but he does not express personal doubts about his student's account.

You're right. I was mistaken to say that he, himself, had such doubts.

BP, I feel that you're being a bit insincere here. You stated that you knew lots of people at your previous church who claimed to know or to have heard about the anti-religious atmosphere at the university level, but that after talking to lots of people, including some actual "Evangelicals", you couldn't find anyone who had ever experienced these issues first hand until today when you read that I experienced it first hand.

It was not quite "until today," as I had forgotten you had related your experience to me once before. However, yes, no one else with whom I have conversed on the subject, including a great many Evangelicals, has ever related to me that they had personal experience with anti-Christian bias in a university classroom.

I think that the fact that you had heard about it so often, and that someone finally confirmed it should have given you pause right there

As I've said, I don't doubt that such things occur. I doubt that they occur as commonly as is often alleged.

...but not only did I mention my own personal experience, I gave two links to educators who also witnessed this first hand, and found it to be common among their students and their own peers (it seems you missed the other link I posted: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...lions-den.html).

I did, indeed, miss the other educator's post. Unfortunately, I cannot access the full article, as I am not a subscriber to Christianity Today. If there is strong evidence in that article that anti-Christian discrimination is a common occurrence in university classrooms, it is not found in the section of the article which I am able to read.

I pointed out that the issue is so well known that the University of Oregon received a substantial grant from the John Templeton Foundation to see how far anti-religious bias actually goes,

The fact that a study was commissioned does not imply anything about the results of that study. Have those results been analyzed and published anywhere?

and I also linked to a non-profit organization with numerous cases of infringement on religious liberties.

And I responded to that. Even if, for the sake of argument, every one of those listed cases represented a legitimate instance of discrimination against Christians in the classroom, and even if that list was only representative of 1% of all such instances, this still only represents a very small number of instances when compared to the tens of millions of Christian students attending universities.

Once again, I do not doubt that these things occur. I simply doubt that they occur as commonly as is often alleged.

In the course of mere hours, you went from not knowing a single person in this world who had experienced this issue, to hearing of dozens of direct and indirect accounts from relatively reputable sources.

I still don't know a single person in this world who has experienced this issue. I have conversed with precisely one person who has related such an experience. I have read numerous accounts of anti-Christian discrimination, even before today, some of which I completely agree are legitimate and others of which are dubious. If I were claiming that these things never happen, then this would be some fairly reasonable evidence that I am mistaken. However, I am not claiming any such thing.

When expressing my hope that this would hopefully allow you to re-evaluate your position on the subject...having gone from not knowing anyone who had experienced this issue, and then being confronted with plenty of accounts for it, you reply "How so?", and then double-down on your view that it must be extremely uncommon.

I never said that it must be extremely uncommon. I've only said that I doubt it is as common as is often alleged, and that the idea that universities are atheist recruitment camps is ridiculous.

Still, I'm wondering how anything which you've posted indicates that this is anywhere near as common as is often claimed. We both agree that these things occur. If you want to demonstrate that they occur frequently, then it will require more than some examples of these things occurring. The University of Oregon study which you mentioned would be a much better bit of evidence, for example. If such a study showed that anti-Christian discrimination occurred in college classrooms with anywhere near the frequency that my Christian friends and family allege that it occurs, I would certainly need to re-evaluate my position.

[Adrift]

I did, indeed, miss the other educator's post. Unfortunately, I cannot access the full article, as I am not a subscriber to Christianity Today. If there is strong evidence in that article that anti-Christian discrimination is a common occurrence in university classrooms, it is not found in the section of the article which I am able to read.

You don't need to be subscribed to Christianity Today to read the full article (I'm not, i can).

The fact that a study was commissioned does not imply anything about the results of that study. Have those results been analyzed and published anywhere?

Not that I know of.

the idea that universities are atheist recruitment camps is ridiculous.

This is a strawman. I haven't argued this.

Still, I'm wondering how anything which you've posted indicates that this is anywhere near as common as is often claimed. We both agree that these things occur. If you want to demonstrate that they occur frequently, then it will require more than some examples of these things occurring. The University of Oregon study which you mentioned would be a much better bit of evidence, for example. If such a study showed that anti-Christian discrimination occurred in college classrooms with anywhere near the frequency that my Christian friends and family allege that it occurs, I would certainly need to re-evaluate my position.

The anti-religious environment at the academic level is well known, and attested to as I've demonstrated (and as I'm certain others here are also aware). If that's not good enough for you then, oh well. Again, I suspect you're being disingenuous, but I'm not going to argue about it.

[Starlight]

It's enough that I know what I've experienced first hand, and what I've been told by others who have as well.

Riiiiiiigggggghhhhttt.
What an idiot.

This issue is so prevalent in academia that, as BP pointed out, a very successful film was made on the subject. A film that resonated strongly enough with Christians that it led to a successful sequel.

It's a common talking point among US evangelical Christians about how persecuted they are, of course a movie that plays into that delusional fantasy is popular.

There are reputable voices

Er, ChristianityToday? An article which starts off by admitting that the evidence is "mixed"? My, what truly compelling evidence.

who discuss their own anecdotal experience.

Neither BP nor I have any problem acknowledging that there are probably a small number of people at every university who are inappropriate about the subject of religion. However it's important to remember that the inappropriateness can happen both ways - in BP's experience it was a Christian lecturer trying to 'save' them during the lecture. Some lecturers are just kooky - I had a few - and like to ramble on about unrelated topics (not religion in any of the cases I encountered) often with the belief that they are making the lectures more 'interesting' for the students.

So of course there are occasionally professors who are inappropriately anti-religious, just as of course there are occasionally professors who are inappropriately pro-religious. But that doesn't amount to a systemic hatred of God being present within universities. Ignoring the one and emphasizing the other is just part and parcel of the US Christian paranoia complex.

There are studies in progress attempting to measure how pervasive the issue is.

Cool, let me know if they find anything. Though I note that the study's end-date has passed already and the researchers haven't published any conclusions, so I guess maybe the study didn't find anything. Looking at the lead researcher's past publications shows me he'd love to write about an anti-Christian bias if he could find one.

People who claim that the state of Western academia is generally positive towards religion and the religious have their heads buried in the sand

Both BP and I have said it doesn't make any value judgments about religion either positive or negative... we both have done multiple qualifications at secular universities and have spent many years at such institutions and both know about the experiences of many, many, others at such institutions.

You could argue, I guess, that US universities are very different to ones here in NZ in terms of what they tolerate. You guys have 'tenure' systems where professors can get away with blue murder knowing they can never be fired, while here any students lodging claims of harassment or inappropriate behavior would be taken extremely seriously by the administration. Being considerate of others is a major cultural value here and we tend to view Americans as rude and obnoxious due to how straightforward they often are in announcing their own views. But BP's experiences at American universities seem to line up with my own.

But Starlight lives in backwards land, where up is down, and left is right. You can typically count on reality to be the opposite of whatever he has to say.

This from the guy who claimed America is the freest nation in the world because it allegedly has the lowest population density.